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Posted 3/19/2009 3:41 PM (GMT -5)
I met with Dr Zhang last week and I think he is an amazing man/physician/ herbalist with much promise to chronic sufferers. We spent 2 hours talking and I have already felt some improvement in my elbow neuritis/dental neuralgias/nausea/ and energy.

Let me share some of what I learned. As I think this is key to full recovery from this disease.

Lyme is an infectious disease but it is much more as most of you realize. There is an autoimmune piece which must be addressed and is not addressed by using antibiotics alone. As you kill the various infections, an antibody response develops, with immune complexes (bugs attached to antibodies) that deposit in the membranes of your nerves and vessels. These immune complexes cause inflammation and autoimmune disease ensues. Just like what occurs in Lupus or Rheumatoid arthritis, Sjogren's.... This process is of course different for everyone depending on their underlying immune status and genetic tendencies- hence the wide variablity of symptoms. Some people have an easy ride, others difficult, probably due to ongoing untreated co-infections and more severe autoimmune response. Autoimmune disease accounts for so many Lyme symptoms such as neuritius, neuropathy, muscle pain, and vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels) leading to headache/depression/mental fog/Sjogren's/ Raynaud's...).

In addition to this immune problem there is what the Chinese call "Blood Stagnation"-- it is sometimes recognized in the West as Hypercoaguable blood with abnormal clotting studies- but often the clotting studies are "normal". Most chronic infections and illness is accompanied by blood stagnation, causing symptoms such as nausea, breast pain, hormone imbalance, irritabiltiy, headache, depression......both the autoimmune response and the blood stagnation much be addressed. It is not enough to simply kill organisms in the blood.

In addition to these principles antibiotic therapy, though vital, is limited. Antibiotics are large molecules which can not penetrate inside of cysts and tissues. To treat these areas you must use treatments capable of being taken up in the tissues (Samento, Una de Gato, Flagyl, etc) ....but what I found unique about Zhang's protocol is that he has isolated the active ingredients of some herbs, such as Artemesinin, that is a very tiny molecule capable of passing into tissues and cysts (his artemsiae remedy is more potent than artemesin for this reason. This is very exciting and a great breakthrough in Lyme disease treatment.

To summarize I feel you need: antibiotics to kill organisms, with immune support (vitamin D3, K2, mushrooms, ..), treatments for immune complex disease (Dr Zhang has a formula perhaps others know of others) and treatment of blood stagnation (the Chinese do this the best I feel).

Hope this makes some sense and gives you hope. I firmly believe that Lyme disease is curable. FYI The treatments for AIDS are derived from the Chinese Cucumber Plant, (Dr Zhang also pioneered much work in that field)......
Posted 3/19/2009 3:48 PM (GMT -5)
Kendall, you asked me a question about your symptoms......doesn't sound like Babesia-- could be Bart-- but prob due to cysts/ myopathy/vasulitis in tissues from immune complexes......for what it's worth I think most of us have Bart or BLO and i intend to use Bart treatments on myself. I am about to add Rifampicin with Zhang's herbs (HH) inaddition to his Artemesia extract that gets into cysts. I am still doing Azithromycin, Omnicef, Probenecid for Lyme/Babesia........thinking of going off Mepron (it's been 6 months) but will stay on Enula and I am using Zhang's Immune complex herbs and his blood coagulation treatment.

My visit with Zhang cost $150, included acupuncture (which was very powerful-ie lots of nausea and fatigue after). The herbs are not cheap, running about $300/month. I wouldrecommend seeing Zhang if you feel you have plateaued-- he does phone consults.
Posted 3/19/2009 3:57 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks for sharing your Zhang experience !!! I learn so much form all of you - this is incredible helpful !!
dorit
Posted 3/19/2009 4:08 PM (GMT -5)
It is encouraging to hear someone use the word "cure" when speaking of Lyme disease, gives us all reason to hope..thanks   D

Posted 3/19/2009 5:33 PM (GMT -5)
thanks for sharing...i will look into this.

Posted 3/19/2009 6:31 PM (GMT -5)
Hi pcpc and all,

Very interesting information.  I guess in my case I am the exception to the rule as I became better after about 8 months (maybe less) using a different alternative medicine protocol very much to my surprise as I was very sick for 10 years with severe joint pain, brain fog, lyme rage episodes, couldn't walk for a long time, etc.  

Antibiotics (it was Doxy) didn't help me as I thought it would.  Then for 4 years I tried all sorts of natural remedies (not Zhang) which didn't help either.   Then a friend told me about this alternative medicine protocol written in a book and I went on that and have been in remission for over 3 years now.

I view my good health as a result of taking botanicals, heavy detoxing, and building my immune system.   To this day I keep detoxing and take immune boosting supplements as well as exercising.  I believe that attitude plays a huge role in this disease as well, if one is going to think positive then I believe they will get better faster as the mind is a powerful tool.   Thus I believe it's a combination of addressing every aspect of one's body including the mind.   I never believed in the word "cured" as I think (I could be wrong) that we will always have lyme bacteria's in our bodies to some degree (I was retested and the results showed no lyme or coinfections).   When I was sick I did test CDC positive for ehrlichiosis.  

Does Zhang address detoxing?  Just curious because where do the toxins go if not eliminated from the body?   The people I help do detox as they find detoxing daily gets rid of their pains and many ailments.   

In my case, I had a huge amount of ammonia in my brain as well as my tissues which caused the lyme rage episodes, that was really scary!   So I took a product to clear out that ammonia and have been fine every since.  No more brain fog either... 

So that's what worked for me..   I know everyone is different and responds differently to protocols, I think it's a matter of finding the right protocol.   

Thanks again for your input,

Denise

Posted 3/19/2009 6:45 PM (GMT -5)
Yes I completely agree- the herbs used in the blood formula are for detox-- they clean the blood and help the liver. I too agree the attitude is so important and actually one of the other major things that has helped me is Bruno Groening Circle of Friends...check out this website

http://www.bruno-groening.org/kreis/defaultmusik.htm

It is music written, composed, sung, played and produced from people who received healings-- the practice is effortless ie listen to the music 10 mins morning and night or whenever you are feeling like you can not cope any more and ask to receive healing energy and voila-- I had improvement of neurologic signs after I attended a meeting, quite by chance. It sounds so hokey ...I didn't want to share it but it is very powerful- Dr Christiane Northrup introduced me to it. I love this practice and have it on my i phone for when I travel. It really helps attitude. Dr Zhang said to me "Only the body can heal itself. We give it these things but then it is the body's energy that does the true healing". He believes that Lyme can be cured, i always thought that one had to live with the cysts- he says no you can penetrate them!
Posted 3/19/2009 7:05 PM (GMT -5)
What does he recommend for joints that pop?

What about the hypercoagulation? Or blood stagnation?


PCPC - Nothing repeat nada is hokie when it works. No one argues with success.
Posted 3/19/2009 7:16 PM (GMT -5)
Wow, I just wrote a long response and hit the wrong button on my keyboard.

Anyway, I agree completely that "only the body can heal itself" and it just needs help to get to that place. 

I will tell a story:  In 1974 I was walking, crossing a major road when a speeding car hit me in my legs and I flew up in the air and landed on my head.  Needless to say I lost too much blood and was not expected to live.   I was out of that hospital in 1 week exactly.   The doctors called me a miracle case for more than 1 reason (but I'll leave out the graphics).

Not once did it ever enter my mind that I was not going to make it.  Yes, my jaw was wired up, I lost most of my upper teeth, had 300 stitches in my scalp and other places.  I was making jokes in the hospital and when I got home.  When the wires came out I even went back to work without teeth (waiting for my temporary bridge to be made) and everyone at work called me Grandma, LOL!  I don't know where my attitude came from, it was just there..   I remember feeling bad for everyone around me as they were horrified at what happened to me so I was busy calming down everyone else...   There's alot more to this story (and over 15 operations later on) but you get my point...  Attitude is everything plus I believe someone was watching over me..  

Thanks for the link!  I could use it because as life would have it, I get all better from lyme and then start perimenopause, go figure!   If it's not one thing, it's another, LOLOLOL!!!

Denise  :-)

Posted 3/19/2009 7:46 PM (GMT -5)
pcpc,

Thanks for the info from your Zhang visit. I have consulted with him by telephone in the past and took his herbs for 3 months this summer. I was on the allicin and wow, that was smelly! I stopped for three months and now am back on the protocol with only Circulation P, Coptis and HH capsules. I don't have many symptoms at the moment, but I have had issues over the past 20 years. I sometimes get dull headaches now and then. I don't get them as much when I'm on Zhang's protocol.

The rest of my family is very, very sick, however. My 4 year old twins and 2 year old daughter see DR. J in CT. My husband is sick with bart, babs and lyme just like my children. My children are getting better slowly but I am concerned because we are not detoxing or using herbs other than artemisinin. I wonder if circulation P might be good for them. I also wonder about adding HH capsules. Maybe I will consult with Zhang about them. One of my tiwns just switched from Bactrim to Rifampin (also on Mepron, zith and artemisinin) and someone suggested I add milk thistle for the liver and I just started that today.

The herbs overwhelm me a bit because there are so many and I don't know what should be taken with what. Dr. J is not into the alternative medicine, so I can't get his advice on that stuff. At least he uses artemisinin now. I am very interested in adding samento to my families' protocol but am scared to do something that wouldn't work with the meds. I need to research this a lot more.

Just curious, did Zhang actually tell you that Samento is needed in the protocol or was that your opinion? I ask because I don't think Samento is part of his protocol.

Do you mind sharing which products Zhang recommends for detox, for autoimmune response and blood stagnation?

Thanks,

tickbattler
Posted 3/19/2009 7:55 PM (GMT -5)
PCPC I too wrote a long reply to your post but for some reason it got wiped out (not from hitting the wrong button either). Anyway thanks for your post I also learn much from you and what you learn. I am gearing up to do trainings in local hospitals along with a Lyme literate pharmacist. I am waiting until he feels ready to be able to speak the language of the medical doctors who hate to be told anything about lyme let alone educate them about co-infections. I attempted to do this many times during my visits to some 32 doctors in the last 10 years.

I have gone to your site and read a little about you. I am looking forward to your progress and sharing about the different herbs that work for you. I wish you were my PCP!
Blessings
Posted 3/20/2009 9:33 AM (GMT -5)
Tickbattler, I am not on Samento anymore but took it for about 8 years as I grew up on the Cape and had a borderline western blot discovered about 8 years ago. My immune problems which had been a problem for about 30 years improved dramatically until I was rebit. Samento is not part of Zhang's protocol but he knows it well.

Until I met Zhang I had thought that once coinfections are gone (which can take some time as you know) the Lyme was the only remaining chronic infection that would remain in a dormant cysted state within the tissues and as long as you maintained your health (whatever that means) you could live a normal life with occassional flares (ie the cyst activate and enter the blood)....this is how secondary syphilis works...so I had used Samento to help reduce my cyst load- which I think I did for many years.

Now Zhang has excited me as with his estracted Atemesinin (Artesunate) he believes that this very small molecule can penetrate inside tissue and cysts and he believe complete errradication is possible and he has many cures (he has treated 1000 Lyme patients over 12 years). He also has a relative who is involved in active Bartonella research with the HH formula, which has shown good cures. That is why my LLMD sent me to him to get HH for suspected Bartonella.

I think you are probably needing his Artemesin product- FYI the allicin is very smelly but for me because I was on antibiotics for Lyme he said I could skip that for now .......but he may add it after antibiotics are withdrawn as I improve.

He has a blook on Amazon with protocols ...for blood stagnation he uses Circulation P 1 capsule 3x/day with food. To treat immune complex/vasulitis/ fibromyalgia/MS symptoms he uses AI #3 capsules, for 1-3 months at a time.....he is a gerat resource for us. i do think as Chinese medicine became the answer for AIDS it will in Lyme. We are going to get him to speak at ACAM......ps what do the little symbols mean?
Posted 3/20/2009 11:20 AM (GMT -5)

tickbattler said...
pcpc,


The herbs overwhelm me a bit because there are so many and I don't know what should be taken with what. Dr. J is not into the alternative medicine, so I can't get his advice on that stuff. At least he uses artemisinin now. I am very interested in adding samento to my families' protocol but am scared to do something that wouldn't work with the meds. I need to research this a lot more.

Thanks,

tickbattler

EXACTLY!  That's my chief frustration as well. I'm a psychologist and have worked alongside MD's for most of my professional careerr and so I know a bit about metabolic competition as a real issue in any med regime incorporating several different drugs. We don't hear nearly enough about what herb or nutraceutical may contraindicate another, or when and how the take them.

How are we to responsibly and effectively incorporate herbs such as garlic, artemisiae, Cat's Claw, etc into a daily regime? What's ok to take together, what's not, what's best absorbed on an empty stomach, what's best with food, etc, etc?  All I ever read is another herb suggestion but no comment on how to reconcile it with other herbs, which is at least as important to know as the name of the new herb reccomended.

Posted 3/21/2009 11:28 AM (GMT -5)
I am glad you had such a positive experience with Dr. Zhang but I have a few questions. In reading his book, it seems artemsiae is used to treat babesia and not lyme. Coptis, Allicin, and R5081 are used for lyme with Circulation P. to improve blood flow through the tissue. HH is used for bartonella.
Are you sure he has only treated 1000 patients in 12 years? It seems like he would be treating that many people right now. I can't remember the recovery rate which was in his book but I wonder how it compairs with people on ABX or another protocol.

I also believe you have to have a complete lifestyle change if you ever expect to become well again.
I agree with Deejavu that detoxing the body is important. I haven't gone as far as fasting yet but that is probably the only way to cleanse the body, followed by a strict diet with fresh vegtables being the primary food. I believe you need to support your system with supplements, to know what is eaten up by the bacteria and to replenish it, as well as reducing inflammaion with other herbs.

Deejavu, what is the book that helped you recover?
Posted 3/21/2009 12:32 PM (GMT -5)
How do you fast when on ABX? My stomach is in pretty much constant turmoil.
Posted 3/21/2009 2:36 PM (GMT -5)
I don't think you can fast while on ABX unless you take a break from them. Maybe I will do the fast one of these days - I used to do it when I was younger. I'll let you know if I do and feel better.
Posted 3/21/2009 5:39 PM (GMT -5)
Yes I so agree with Gracie's mom it is not a good idea to do anything with herbs/supplements/antibiotics on your own. I am a physician who is trained in Chinese medicine and has worked in alternative medicine for 25 years. I do not self prescribe. I have put together a team approach and ultimately my LLMD is in charge. She referred me to Zhang as I felt I had plateaued and needed Bartonella therapy and so many "Bartonella drugs are resistant or limited. I was referred to Zhang for HH capsules.

Nefferdun, you are correct in your understanding of the herbs I think. I remain on Omnicef, Probenecid and Una de Gato for Lyme. Dr Zhang told me that he was concerned that my Babesia was not fully treated (I was on Mepron and Azithromycin, Artemesinin, and Enula for Babs). I had not been feeling like I had much Babesial symptoms. Zhang said that he finds Babesia the hardest to treat. So now I am on his Artemesia- after his acupuncture I had night sweats and on his Artemesia extract I am continuing to have night sweats/chills and heat so I think he is hitting what Babesiae the antibiotics were not getting.

I started his HH capsules for Bartonella and I think my dental sensitivities (which are a horrible symptom) are improving. I have also developed a different type of headache - a low grade headache on the top of my head. I was told that Bart headaches are more on the top of the head and Babesia more temples and more intense.

about fasting- wouldn't consider this until off antibiotics. Deejavu- what book helped you with your detox? Thanks all
Posted 3/21/2009 5:40 PM (GMT -5)
Oh forgot to mention that I am seeing my LLMD Monday to review all this and the plan is to add Rifampicin for Bart in addition to the HH capsules.
Posted 3/22/2009 8:41 AM (GMT -5)
Hi nefferdun and pcpc,

What worked for me was Dr. David Jernigan's protocol, he has recently come out with a updated version of his original book "Beating Lyme Disease".   I not only detoxed (he has so many detox methods and cleanses) but took his botanicals (so there was no guess work involved) and I was able to do this from home.   His botanicals put my body back in sync again and I learned much about lyme disease from his original book.    Dr. Jernigan had chronic lyme himself and was near death and he treated  himself and then decided to help others.   He does have a clinic in Kansas but I never went there, do know many that have and are also completely better.  So that's what worked for me. 

I was happy when I learned that he grows his own botanicals in Kansas and tests all of them using advanced technology.   So I wasn't scared of taking his medicines.   But I took one product in the beginning just to see if I felt any different which I did so I continued his protocol taking more of his botanicals.  I was on his protocol for about 8 months total.  Cost me about $150.00 per month.  That's it.  I do continue to detox (epsom salt baths, dry skin brushing, exercise, foot baths, etc.) and take immune boosting supplements (Green Vibrance) to keep myself strong.

Denise

Posted 3/22/2009 3:58 PM (GMT -5)
I have been buying Zhang herbs since Jan 09. I have consulted with both him and Dr. Schaller. Honestly it wasn't until I added Quina and ACS200 silver (Schaller reports some patients see significant symptom reduction for Bartonella with Silver but doesn't know if it is curative), that I started to feel better which is as of mid last week. Schaller does clinical outcome studies and says you need higher dosing than the proposed 1 3x/day artemesia - he says even double the dose for a year wont cure. His latest book on Babesia goes into safe dosing that is curative, and only takes a few months, backed up by research. I was taking as many as 12 in a day. The problem is sure you are curing Babesia, but if you still have lyme and bartonella, you still feel horrible. My thinking now is that most people start to feel better on Samento, Cumanda, etc... so take a broad spectrum anti-microbacterial while you take anything that may be organism specific, so that you are constantly making progress throughout the board.

I have had so many symptoms and experiences since January, I cannot even get into detail. All I know is that as I lay here typing this I can think clearly and have energy with very little discomfort.

The HH gives crazy insomnia, I would literally stay up and awake all night with no sleep, and the allicin can make people smell you from a mile away. My family members can't stand me when I am taking it. I was getting unmanageable stomach pain, to the point that I had to go to the ER (of course I was fine they told me) so I stopped both for now. I have read stomach pain can be a symptom of bart and Zhang says possible Herx reaction. He said however that there are 0 adverse reactions from his herbs, which should not cause stomach pain. I am going to order some Coptis and R-5081 this week as I have been told it can be curative for Lyme, and since I have spent so much time taking artemesia and going after Babesia I want to try and kill the other bugs.

Does anyone know if Zhang herbs can be used in addition to Cowden protocol, through fact or direction from Zhang himself? I am doing it anyways and so far so good..

I am taking Wobenzym as anti-coagulation. I've also taken some 5-HTP which Zhang says is ok, and it has helped my mood.

Post Edited (bigdreams87) : 3/22/2009 3:14:37 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 3/22/2009 4:19 PM (GMT -5)
pcpc, Thanks, what do you think would be the best treatment for cysts/ myopathy/vasulitis in tissues from immune complexes? Also do you have a practice? and if so where are you located. Thanks, -:)
Posted 3/22/2009 6:38 PM (GMT -5)
thanks deejavu for the info on how you got better.
I will look up Dr. Jernigan and consider his protocol as a rotation with the other herbs I use. I believe it is important to rotate everything, not just abx.

bigdreams, HH gave me terrible insomnia also. I just quit a month of Levaquin (having quit because of joint pain) and am using the HH capsules with no problem so far. Zhang's Herbsom is very good for insomnia. It has corydalis and jujube seeds which you can also order online from other companys. I could not tolerate the smell of allicin. It was so strong it was sickening to me - and everyone else. I used coptis and R5081. I relapsed but it may have been due to undiagnosed bartonella.
Posted 3/22/2009 10:54 PM (GMT -5)
How many HH are you taking? For curative you are to take up to 20-25 in a day. The idea of this scares me, I will never sleep if I do that. Have you ever tried Silver or Cowden protocol?
Posted 3/23/2009 10:37 AM (GMT -5)
I am taking 4 HH per day with Rifampicin for Bartonella. All of my Bart tests were negative, including my Endothelial Cell Growth Factor- but I am convinced (as is my LLMD) that I have Bart or BLO. I think that many of us have this whether they test positive or not. When I strated the HH capsules I developed headache and some worsening ADD. I bit of lightening of my sleep. Dr Zhang's Herbsom si good for sleep- I have used Jujube extract for years in my practice for insomnia and as Nefferdun mentioned you can use (cheaper) Chinese formulas with Jujube and Corydalis for sleep.

I like to use melatonin for sleep as it helps to protect the brain with its potent antioxidant abilities. Most Lyme sufferers need very high doses of this ( Itake 15 mg/night). I also use tryptophan which I increased from 2000 to 2500 mg before bed (empty stomach - no proteins near it) and my orthomolecular guy also added in Pure encapsulation GABA 500 mg (2 before dinner) while I am on the HH/rifampicin.
Posted 3/23/2009 1:27 PM (GMT -5)
Kendall 122, I would consider doing a consult with Dr Zhang. I am not doing any new clients as I get better- my main focus is on natural hormones, homorne metabolism, breast cancer prevention, that sort of thing. Have you seen my website? You can email me there privately.

Bigdreams87 - that dose of HH capsules doesn't seem right to me. I am taking 4 HH with Rifampicin for Bart and I am taking more Zhnag Aremesiae but it is strong so anyone reading this thinking of doing Zhang herbs without his guidance go slow- you will Herx. i do not consider his Artemesiae the same as the regular Artemesia or even Artmesinin- his is actually another molecule, Artesunate. It is much lower molecular weight than Artemesinin and pentrates tissues more deeply. I had thought my Babesial symptoms were gone until adding Zhang Artemesia (Artesunate) in. I will be increasing up to 6/day with Artemesinin (Allergy Research) 300 mg/day. Yes you can use Cowden herbs with Zhang herbs as I just saw him and his okay with me using Enula and he is familiar with Samento, etc.

My LLMD today agreed that I should stop Mepron (my amylase was rising) and after I have added in Zhang herbs with Rifampicin, she thinks I should change Azithromycin to Biaxin with amantadine or Plaquenil. I am a little leary of Plaquanil .........oy, this is a full time job!
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