Bartonella vs stretch marks

Hello,

I am a 36 year old male who was clinically diagnosed by a Lyme specialist with Lyme, based on my history (diagnosed and treated for only 14 days with doxy in 1997), sometimes-crippling neuro and joint symptoms, and on her absolute assurance that the stretch marks I have all over my body are actually bartonella rashes. I am relatively thin--I'm 5'11" and currently 153lb (173 was my heaviest), and yet I've got huge stretch marks all over my body, from my stomach and sides and shoulders to my KNEES. Yes, knees. It's devastating. The scars sometimes itch and sometimes burn like fire, and when they do, lotion doesn't help, so I don't think that's dry skin.

So after I was on antibiotics for a couple of weeks, my labs came back and both Lyme and bartonella tests were negative. In fact, as with all the labs I've had over the past five years to rule out MS, I'm the picture of perfect health, test-wise.

My scars look exactly like the bartonella images I see online *except* that, like stretch marks, they were all red when new, but they have faded to white/silvery as they aged. Does that also happen with bartonella? I also have extremely sensitive allergic skin and a tiny scratch turns into red, inflamed hives. Is that characteristic of any known Lyme-related infection? I'm going to try to post images here. I really would appreciate any informed responses...do my scars look like bartonella even though they aren't currently red? They do seem to become more inflamed when they are hurting and I have no idea if that happens with real stretch marks or not.

I have the EXACT same rashes but they are mostly on my upper back and sometimes on my chest area. I was actually bit on my back almost 3 years ago and this is where the rashes usually appear.

They are definitely Bartonella rash marks. I saw my Lyme doctor 3 weeks ago and my back was all flared up in the rash and he said it was most definite a Bart rash.

Mine are also red....look like either a long red scratch or streak. Then they burn and itch...scab over and turn white. I have dozens of these scars on my back.

I am currently on Rifampin/Levaquin....

Hi Americanlymie!
Welcome to our community!!

I can tell you that my skin looked a lot like that when I had Bartonella. Scratches would welt up and be super bright red and any small cut or scratch I had to use peroxide on and bandage with antibiotic ointment right away or it would be infected the next day.

I can also tell you that that's all cleared up for me now that my Bartonella has been treated. My skin has gone back to what I believe is "normal" for me. I had Bartonella 39 years before I got effective treatments, so sometimes it's hard for me to know what "normal" should be.

I did switch to a very gentle soap, and I was sure to moisturize my skin frequently. I'm not sure if that helped much or not, but it made me feel like I was helping my skin!! LOL!

And it's quite common for those who have these infections to have very good labs. That's part of what makes this so difficult!

Keep asking questions - knowledge is power with these infections!

Thank you, Lymie Girl, and everyone else. I haven't looked into Cushing's at this point, mainly because I've had a lot of blood work done over the past five years, and all my hormones, etc. have been completely normal--of course, so have almost all of my tests overall. Also, I read about Cushings after a coworker's dog died as a result of it, and of course the stretch marks symptom got my attention...but other Cushing's symptoms include gaining weight in the face and neck, the upper body, etc., and aside from the little bit of fat I've put on since I've become so fatigued, that doesn't match my body type at all. If anything, I am sort of on the borderline of a Marfan's Syndrome body type, as my whole body is a little more elongate than average, and I'm a little more flexible than the average person. But I'm actually going to see a dermatologist today about a mole, and I plan to ask his opinion about all my other skin problems--if he thinks these are stretch marks or could be bartonella rashes. (However, I am aware that an average dermatologist may not be very well versed in bartonella, so I'll be weighing his opinion with that of my Lyme doctor, and plan to continue the antibiotics either way.)

I feel pretty certain I have bartonella, because I've got LOTS of these scars/rashes all over my torso, and a lot of them are fine, small, red squiggles that just simply do not resemble the big stretch marks that people have due to obvious weight gain. Most of mine are white, but all the new ones, and especially the very small ones, are red.

The psychiatric issues discussed in the LymeMD.blogspot article are so complex and confounding to me. I don't know where cause begins and effect ends, or vice versa. Five years ago, the worst of my neurological symptoms hit me light a freight train and sent me to a neurologist for all the typical tests--MRIs, EMGs, everything but a lumbar puncture (spinal tap). In the end, he told me that I am the picture of perfect health and suggested that I see a psychiatrist and take a vacation. I felt insulted--but I was extraordinarily depressed and had begun having panic attacks, and after a few months, I thought that I should be more objective and less sensitive and went to a psychiatrist. I've seen her monthly ever since. She has improve my mental well being tremendously...but she's also been addressing all of my symptoms as potentially psychiatric in nature until recently, when she disclosed that she thinks I should take certain medications at certain times because they've been shown to reduce brain inflammation (a physical problem, not an emotional one), and may well help to prevent the vertigo attacks caused by what was recently diagnosed as Meniere's disease (with attendant 50% loss of hearing in my left ear). That was the thing that finally provoked me to see a Lyme specialist--finding out that, wait a minute, these problems are not "all in your head."

So given my history above, and the fact that I am gay and was severely harassed in my youth and became severely depressed as a result, it is hard for me to know whether the depression, anxiety, anger, etc. is environmental or physiological in nature. Possibly both. Probably both. In a sense, I think I would prefer it to be caused by environmental factors, such as my stressful job, than by an infection in my brain. Just because that is a really alienating, disturbing thought to come to terms with.

Before I read about bartonella & before I found my Lyme-literate doctor, I thought that taking baths was somehow contributing to my stretch marks, because I noticed often, not always, that when I got out of the bath, my stretch marks appeared inflamed. But it's still mysterious to me because, where most people's bartonella rashes seem to be red/purple and raised, a lot of my rashes/scars are silvery-white and actually a little depressed/indented as if the collagen has collapsed. It seems like it's the regular skin tissue surrounding those that puffs up rather than the opposite. But in full disclosure, I am honestly so disgusted by the appearance that I have a lot of associated shame and can't really force myself to look at my skin. Doing so just sends me into a terrible depression.

Americanlymie,

Don't be so hard on yourself! Lymies struggle with problems causing body issues. But we can't let it get to us! Don't define your worth based on your body and don't compare yourself to others. It will just make you unhappy.

As for whether you have Bart, something else or multiple things going on, I just want to clarify that we are not doctors and can't diagnose you. But, we can share our personal experiences. I do think some of your rashes look similar to ones that I have had and I have Bart, Lyme and Babesia.

It is also common for people with Lyme to have otherwise normal blood tests. I know I did. In my opinion - not medical advice - I do think you're on the right track with Lyme and Bart. Of course, you need to be diagnosed by a doctor.

If you have a good Lyme Literate doctor, your doctor will test and evaluate you for all possibilities. Lyme can mess with your entire body and can throw a lot of things out of whack. That being said, oftentimes treating Lyme and co can resolve many of the problems.

Good luck with the dermatologist. As a heads up, most doctors don't have adequate knowledge on Tick Bourne Diseases. I asked an ex - primary care doctor if I could have Bartonella and he completely wigged out on me. And he could not give me any idea whatsoever what was wrong with me. That is when I found another primary doctor and then an LLMD. I'm happy I did! I'm improving with treatment.

Hang in there!

Thanks, Lymie Girl. I certainly understand that this isn't a forum for medical advice. I've also realized through this process, though, that learning about others' symptoms can be even *more* informative than doctors' advice, and so I tend to seek out as many experiences as I can.

Over the past four years or so, after having MS ruled out but continuing to go downhill, I scoured the Internet and found all sorts of possible things, from Lupus to connective tissue disorders to...Lyme. And yes, I know every doctor discourages this behavior, but when you KNOW something is going wrong, eventually you have to get over the shame of implications that you're a hypochondriac and look for answers for yourself. That's my take, anyway. I ordered my own blood tests--for autoimmune diseases, ELISA Lyme test (the only one available to order myself), sedimentation rate, STDs, including two tests for syphilis--all were normal. When my sister's friend referred me to this Lyme doctor, I brought her all those tests, as well as all the tests ordered by doctors over the years. She went through every piece of paper, and then she told me that I ordered all of the best tests I could have ordered for myself and that she was very impressed at how much I seemed to have learned on my own. So that gave me a little more confidence.

But I'm not going "off the book." I am adhering to her prescribed medication protocol and doing everything she told me to do. I truly believe she knows what she is doing. Even so, she ordered seven vials of blood to be taken and tested, and the only abnormality was a slightly high casein level, which she said means I could have a slight sensitivity to dairy milk. Older blood tests revealed high blood calcium and Eosinophilis from 2010, when my symptoms were their worst, which she said could be an indicator of a parasitic infection like bartonella or babesia. But the Bb, bart, and babesia tests came back negative. She said the tests are "not perfect" and told me to continue on the antibiotic protocol until our next appointment, which is at the end of April. I'm still disappointed and confused by the results...when she clinically diagnosed me w/ bartonella, she said the tests are very often negative, but she said she would actually be surprised if mine came back negative due to the severity of my skin and neurological problems...but it did come back negative.

So I am not asking anyone to definitively diagnose me, but rather posted here to ask about other people's experiences...primarily in determining the difference between stretch marks and bartonella rashes. This is intensely personal to me because I am gay and single and have been plagued with body inadequacy issues and a negative body image my entire life, which I realize is just self-centered, but it affects my life greatly. If I were in a relationship with a supportive partner, I think I'd handle this a little better, but who knows? Anyway, as I said in the original post, just the hope of ANY of the scars/rashes ever fading feels like the granting of a wish. It really, truly does, because I've simply accepted after tons of research that stretch marks never, ever go away. And mine just keep on multiplying. And they freaking HURT like hell a lot of the time--so I'm still curious, not from doctors but from human beings who have them--whether real stretch marks from weight gain are painful. I'd liken the pain to that of a very severe sunburn.

Americanlymie,
I'm a 51 yr old female that has given birth to two kids - and lived with Lyme most of my life, so I know what you are talking about when questioning the difference between actual stretch marks and Bart rashes - and I can honestly say that it's very, very difficult to tell them apart - until you've healed enough for the rashes go away and you are only left with the stretch marks. But with your list of symptoms, I doubt you are dealing with only stretch marks.

If your tongue is white, you aren't taking enough probiotics. We often require very large amounts of probiotics due to the high doses of abx and abx herbs that we take. Most people find they need at least 30,000 - 50,000 units a day. Many find they need a lot more to keep candida at bay.

You need to keep your probiotics and your abx 2 hours apart - and it's best to take the abx first, then wait 2 hours and take your probiotics so that you can replenish the good bacteria in your digestive tract after you have killed a bunch off with the abx.

A good brand to take would be a refrigerated brand - and one with as many different strains of beneficial bacteria as you can afford.

And keep asking questions!!! We are here to help you find your way through this maze! And you are not alone - we really are here to help find information, for you to vent a little to and to answer whatever questions we can!!

Unless they are Lyme literate, be prepared to hear all kinds of nonsense about Lyme and Bartonella!

For me, the Bart marks (as they are called), started clearing by the time I was 1/2 way done with my treatment for Bartonella and have not returned.

I have not really had an issue with stretch marks per se. My Bart rashes have primarily included a variety of: scratch marks kind of what a cat scratch would look like (but not actual scratches), thicker red streak marks, red blotches, reddish purple spider veins and skin indentations. My rashes have had a tendency to appear out nowhere and disappear the same.

I have also had a number of other skin rashes and symptoms, which used to scare me to death because I did not know what was wrong with me.

My skin rashes were the first thing to improve when I started treating! However, everyone is different and you're on different meds. So who knows, but be patient. Things will get better! Don't be so hard on yourself!

That's fantastic that you had a knowledgable, Lyme friendly dermatologist!!! I have not had the pleasure of seeing other Lyme friendly doctors. That's awesome! We need more doctors like that. :)

In one of your posts, you asked if stretch marks from weight gain hurt...and I can tell you that my stretch marks that I got from pregnancy do not hurt. They never did.

So, I'm thinking yours are from bart.

Regarding my earlier comment about my dermatologist being a DC local...my mother just sent this to me (see link below): the Virginia state legislature formed a Lyme action committee, and on pages 11-12, this presentation actually discusses LLMDs in a way that is not condescending, and which even brings up investigations into potential connections between Lyme and multiple sclerosis, ALS, etc. I grew up in Virginia, and there's a lot about the state I don't like, but I'm really proud of this. The attitude toward Lyme elsewhere in the US is not good.

http://services.dlas.virginia.gov/User_db/frmView.aspx?ViewId=834

We need more pro-Lyme docs AL. That is not very typical. I'm happy you had a good experience though.

That is very good to know Traveler!

We don't need the whole "You over treated" attack. I did not know that the CDC / IDSA limits Lyme to BB. That is ridiculous.