Is it possible to show "IND" on a Lyme Specific Band and not have Lyme?

I ask because while I remember the tick bites from years ago, my symptoms seem pretty un-lyme like for the most part, and though I know Lyme is considered the great imitator, my Igenex came back with an entirely negative IGM and a negative IGG. However, my titer on the IFA was 80 and my IGG read like this:

Band 39 IND
Band 41 ++
(All other bands negative)

From what I've come to understand, Band 39 is Lyme specific. Is it even possible to show IND on a band specific to Borrelia and not have Borrelia? I realize exposure to Burgdorgeri doesn't instantly equate to Lyme, but considering my symptoms and the fact that I never treated for it, is this likely? Taking into account the fact that I'm not deathly ill, and have no chronic fatigue, why would more bands not show? My immune system must be doing it's job to some extent, despite suffering from horrible brain fog and head pressure for a year, I haven't actually been sick with a cold or flu in much longer, so my antibody response should have been adequate, no?

Welcome quantumcriterion!

Sorry for the reason you're here but glad you found us.

Lyme suppresses the immune system and coinfections (Bartonella, especially) make that suppression worse. The test you had done was a Western Blot which measures antibody response. Well, a suppressed immune system is unable to mount a huge antibody response.

Any response on a Lyme specific band + symptoms indicates an active infection that needs treatment.

Lucky for me, my symptoms have always been mild but they certainly aren't normal and I know I don't want to deal with them for the rest of my life....especially that the infection can worsen if left untreated.

All of that said, please consider seeing a LLMD. The following site has state-by-state listings of LLMD's:

/sites.google.com/site/lymedoctors/

ILADS (International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society) is cutting edge for Lyme diagnosis and treatment. They have a physician referral feature on their site:

ilads.org/ilads_media/physician-referral/

Our "New to Lyme? Start Here!" thread that sits at the top of the forum is packed with useful information including questions to ask a potential doctor.

Best of luck to you!!

Actually, most of the Lyme specific bands are very definite - they simply don't cross react with anything else, that's why they are referred to as "Lyme specific" bands.

A "Lyme specific band" means specific for Borrelia Burgdorferi, sensu stricto - Lyme disease in the strictest sense. There are only two on the over 300 known strains of Lyme that is considered Bb, ss. Borrelia burgdorferi and Borrelia mayonii. Nothing else will turn a Lyme specific band positive other than Lyme disease - - even though there are over 100 different strains of Borrelia in the US that cause human illness.

You can go to this site where there are PubMed articles showing this: www.oocities.org/hotsprings/oasis/6455/western-blot.txt

According to this article, Bands specific for Borrelia burgdorferi:

14-kDa -possibly specific
21-kDa
22-kDa OspC
25-kDa OspC
28-kDa OspD
31-kDa OspA
34-kDa OspB
35-kDa
37-kDa
39-kDa
47-kDa
50-kDa
83-kDa
93-kDa
94-kDa

IND means indeterminate - not negative, but not quite strong enough to be "fully positive". But it means that you reacted on those bands and should be considered, especially when they are Lyme specific bands.

To pick on the TB tests (because K07 brought it up only as an example), it's a completely different test than it is for Lyme. There are many conditions that are tested for by use of different Western Blots: /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_blot

What gets 'brought out' on each test depends on what testing medium is used and what antibodies are being set up to find.

Here is an example of Western blot being used for HIV: www.healthline.com/health/elisa-western-blot-tests-for-hiv

Here is an example of the Western Blot being used for infectious bursal disease virus infection: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698773

Here is an example of the Western Blot being used for avian Borna virus:
/goo.gl/8d4i9o

And the list goes on.

We all admit that the testing is less than perfect.

Everyone of us that got our Igenex test can read the bottom line "Diagnosis should not be based on laboratory tests alone." -- Straight off the test results.

Ahh... I take it you are going to attempt the cured twice protocol?

good luck with it! I believe it could work, but if you have a few of the co-infections it might not work.

Even if it doesn't cure me, it should hopefully result in some tangible change assuming I have Lyme, yes?

Hi LymePickle,

How are you battling bartonella, Lyme, and mycoplasma? Does the same doctor treat you for all? LLMD doctor?

LymePickle said...
Traveler, that's not what I mean. Even if it's Lyme specific it can still cross react and say indeterminate. If it is + it is for sure. For example maybe there was something from another bacteria that is 39.5 and if there was a western blot that could measure that it would be +++ on that western blot, but on a Lyme western blot it might be IND. That is my point.

Even if a ** is IND it isn't for sure Lyme. If a ** band is + that is Lyme specific then yes it is Lyme. A few Lyme docs have commented on this as it is the case. Which is why they are looking at the whole western blot. (It doesn't need to be in the strict sense of IDSA obviously). And who knows maybe they have Borrelia but a strain that doesn't test positive on the regular Lyme western blot!?

Sometimes Lyme isn't part of chronic disease, and people just think I must have Lyme as that is the poster of chronic disease these days. There are other chronic infections that should be looked into.

You should see a chronic disease Doctor (AKA LYME LITERATE) to at least run a list of your symptoms and run some various tests to get appropriate treatment.

Have exact same question as OP, but I have more bands

Igenex IGG

31 IND
39 IND
41 +++
45 +
58 +

Does mine look like Bartonella???

Never herx on ABX, and probably have Morgellons.

Girlie said...
stopendgo - we can't tell from a Lyme Western blot if you have bartonella.

You said you never herxed on antibiotics. Were you on bartonella and babesia antibiotics?
And...how long did you stay on the antibiotics?
Did you switch them up?

Hi Gielie, thanks for your reply.

No I've not on bartonella or babesia antibiotics I think.
I've tried minocycline, doxycycline, clarithromycin, amoxicillin, ceftin, and tinidazole in the past. I didn't stay very long on any of these, because I felt no obvious effects. Most of the time I took only one at a time, recently I've started to take ceftin and tinidazole together but it's just one week and haven't noticed anything significant.
I did felt some "side effects" but not like herx reaction described on the web.

minocycline: headache
doxycycline: not much I can remember
amoxicillin: nothing, clears headache
ceftin: nausea, fatigue, palpitation, anxiety
tinidazole: nothing, felt good on my head, seems it clears up my brain
clarithromycin: nausea

I was about to try the cured-twice protocol by Will Wiegman, but just read from LymePickle's posts that it does not work for Bartonella, and surprised to find out LymePickle's description of his Bartonella is much like my symptoms. I've never really had any muscular-skeleton symptoms, like joint pain, feet pain, etc. All the Lyme related symptoms are around my head and neck. Brain fog, head pressure, cognitive declination, stiff neck, insomnia, etc.

I had Bartonella and babasia tested years ago, both negative. At that time I truly believed I had babesia, so tested with four different methods, one from Lapcorp?,three from Igenex(including duncani). All negative. I 'd never thought I had Bartonella since no scratch lines but tiny red dots on my skin. But recently I had read about a NB-protocol online, which says Morgellons is directly related to Bartonella. I do have Morgellons as my main complaint, although it's subsidized nowadays I'm in constant fear it will come back. So I'm seriously suspecting what I have is Bartonella, instead of Lyme.


Any thoughts or opinions?

Post Edited (stopandgo) : 4/25/2016 7:06:16 PM (GMT-6)

Girlie said...
How long did you stay on them? A few weeks isn't long enough...was it longer than that?
Not everyone gets a response within a few weeks.
And a combo of two abx should be used...not just one.

Those reactions could be herxes. Everybody's herxes are different. My very first herx was back pain...that's all - on day 4 of doxycycline...it lasted 12 days..until I was advised to lower the dose, up my detox...and see what happens. Lo and behold, the back pain improved a lot. Conclusion - herx.


You do know that bart and babs testing are not good...even worse than lyme testing. LLMD's are good at clinically diagnosing those.

Are you being treated by a LLMD?

I don't even remember for how long I was on abx. I was not treated by some real LLMDs, so from beginning to the end I don't have much trust in them and even doubt if I really have Lyme disease/coinfections? The longest dosing period was on minocycline, for about a month or so. the others, a few weeks at most.

I don't even know what am I treating. Some days I feel good, some days I feel bad, and usually with some indescribable discomfort, largely depend on my diet, sleep, stress level etc. Each day is different. ugh.

Just for input...I contacted IgeneX about the IND bands and exactly what they meant...their response was that there was a reaction to that particular band, but was not dark enough to be considered "CDC" positive. There are intensity (calibration) standards on the bands. It's there, but not dark enough. IND = equivocal/borderline, but not negative.