Herbs vs Antibiotics as a broad spectrum killing agent

I'm wondering if some of my issues may be yeast overgrowth/flora imbalance related even though I don't seem to have many of the classic candida symptoms. I do have gliotoxins present (which is a byproduct of candida) and do get a sore throat on occasion which seems tied to eating too much sugar but that's as much as I can draw from potentially having an issue.

In order to test this theory out, I've tried a bunch of anti-fungals but no changes. Another "test" is to get off abx and maybe switch to herbals. I've been on lots of antibiotics for almost 18 months straight so who knows what is causing what at this point. I don't want to lose any progress (however small) but we know we're many times guinea pigs to test out certain theories.

So to the subject line. If one switches out antibiotics and goes herbals, are the herbals less impactful on your good flora and therefore better for controlling/reducing any yeast issues? Thanks.

Personal opinion is herbs are not harmful on your gut flora. I still took probiotics and I still detoxed.

Herbs can most definitely still impact the gut balance. I have been using herbs for the last 6 years and have had to stop treatment a couple of times in order to get my gut back under control with high doses of probiotics. Buhner recommends them with his protocols as well.

The thought is that they aren't nearly as hard on the gut overall though, so there will be less of a tendency towards candida and fungal issues, but the risk is still very much there.

Many herbs are anti-Candida and some of them extremely so. I can think of Cat's Claw, Japanese Knotweed and Alchornea....and I'm sure there are more.

The systemic antibacterial herbs (Cryptolepis, Andrographis and probably more) are the ones that have the potential to disrupt gut flora.

During the "heavier" parts of my treatment, I was rotating 4 different brands of multi-strain probiotics and dosing twice daily....along with my daily cup of homemade kefir.

Now that I'm very close to being symptom-free and on a significantly reduced protocol, I take one capsule daily of one of those 4 brands that I continue to rotate...along with my daily cup of homemade kefir and now a fermented pickle ;)

>>Rikky to me 18 months on abx seems a very long time

artermix i'm going to hazard a guess your symptoms aren't too debilitating. when they aren't you have choices. when you are dying everyday you don't have the luxury.

i've made little progress since getting sick 2 years ago and you have few choices to try and get better. you can (a) live with your symptoms which i'm not doing, (b) stay on antibiotics and keep plugging away using different combos or (c) stop abx and try something else or (d) both. my LLMD knows my history and we keep trying various new protocols but i don't seem to be making much progress.

This thread raises some great questions! I'm certainly not a microbiologist or a physician, but I think that a little common sense will go a long way in considering the issue of whether herbs can be harmful to the gut flora.

First, Dr. Jernigan uses herbs exclusively at the Hansa Center, and he says that they can be harmful. If anyone should be biased so as to protect the reputation of herbs it would be him. Yet he honestly admits that some herbs can be harmful. He even sometimes uses some of the "killer" herbs with some patients, but its not his primary approach by any means.

Secondly, common sense informs us that if a given herb is bacterialcidal or bacterialstatic against certain pathogens, then it may be broad spectrum to a degree that overlaps into the domain of "friendly" bacteria. Lest anyone erect a straw house and attack it, I am not saying that all herbs are harmful to the gut microbiome. On the other hands, all lymies understand that pharmaceutical ABX in general pose a serious threat to the gut microbiome.

The knowledge base pertaining to the issues posed in this thread is relatively sparse of content. I guess that in a way I am surprised, but not surprised. Its only recent that scientific research has discovered that a large portion of the human immune system resides in the gut. Without that knowledge there is little impetus to focus on the health of the gut flora.

Many have attacked Dr. J. in the past as "unscientific." Man oh man, the exact opposite is where the truth lies. He is constantly reviewing the latest science to develop new breakthrough treatment applications. In the past, he simply encouraged his patients to take a quality probiotic like any other lyme literate physician. He also promoted parasite cleanses and coffee enemas. However recent emerging science has stimulated him to engineer a much more comprehensive microbiome optimization strategy. He refers to his strategy as "theory," and that it is under development at his clinic. He is ever learning, and it is fascinating for me to trace his breakthrough applications of emerging science.

I will say that I am surprised that there weren't more comments on the 4
articles that I posted a few days ago by Dr. J. relating to this topic. He goes into a lot of detail about the preparation of the gut to receive the friendly flora. A lot of people seem to think that it is enough just to ingest a highly quality probiotic, and that little else can be done for the gut. I encourage everyone to carefully read all 4 articles to discover how you can leverage your gut microbiome treatment.

Six to eight years ago I had already implemented some of the gut treatments that Dr. J. identified, yet I learned an immense amount of new and useful information from his recent articles. Dr. J's strategy IS worth consideration!!!

Hopefully nobody will get mad at me for making such an emphasis as I have in this post. I don't consider this to be another regurgitated ho-hum issue, so I am sticking my neck out on the chopping block. This is something new and promising!

http://davidjernigan.blogspot.com/


Don

Post Edited (Heathersdad) : 9/11/2016 2:38:10 PM (GMT-6)