Coming on the end of a month of antibiotics. Super concerned about other causes now.

Well I finish a month of doxycycline tomorrow and see the infection doctor again on Thursday (supposed to, we are expecting a typhoon here in Taiwan Wednesday or Thursday so I may need to reschedule). At this point I have no idea if this is Lyme or something else. If it's "something else" I have no idea what it might be. Feeling very frustrated.

The month of doxycycline I've felt mostly the same except a few hiccups here and there and one (maybe) herx a little over a week ago. I have not had any days where I really felt better except one day where my leg pain let up for a few hours.

Last Thursday I received my JK, Cats Claw, and Andrographis tinctures. I probably started taking them all a little too fast. I typically tolerate herbs well so I did 5 drops of JK 3 times on day 1, then added 5 drops cats claw 3/day on day 2 or 3, and on day 4 or 5 I added 5 drops of andrographis. I didn't notice anything until I added andrographis, I woke up the next morning with pain in my wrists, elbow, and forearm and it was more difficult to write. Also my leg pain is extending more into my thighs than it did before.

Before the herbs came in I was having more severe back pain than usual and went to the chiropractor (I've been going once a month for about 6 months). The chiro includes a regular massage, cupping, and adjustments. Usually they don't say much to me while I'm there due to the language barrier but this time the person giving the massage said my back was not good. When he did the cupping he said my marks were "so black". I thought hey maybe this is a sign the Lyme treatment is doing something.

Anyway, I basically feel like I'm trying to put together an exhausting puzzle. I'm pretty scared now that I'm having issues with my wrists and arms as I never really had pain in these areas before. My balance is still off, and the pain in my legs/knees seems to be extending/ worsening. I'm worried that maybe this isn't Lyme after all and that I'm ignoring another potential problem. I have no idea what that problem might be though.

This is mostly another vent session, but also wondering what you guys think. If I see the infection doctor on Thursday should I ask about getting more antibiotics(I'm probably going to continue working my way up to full doses of the herbs since I have them)? I'm still going to see a rheumatologist I think because I really need some answers. Also, any ideas on what this could be if it isn't Lyme? I've been super nervous about MS since this started, but had a normal brain MRI and ABEP and the doctors said that they don't think it's MS. I haven't had any testing done on my spine though.

My symptoms started in December 2016. I was home for a visit in western PA October-November 2016 which is when I believe I would have been bitten if this is Lyme (I was at a bonfire near the woods, grandparents house near the woods with cats that have been bitten by ticks in the past, and was at a friends house where I actually helped remove ticks from a dog). That's the part of this that probably makes me suspect Lyme the most that my initial symptoms (which at the very beginning were just dizziness/balance issues, no pain anywhere until about month 3 or 4 I think) began almost exactly a month after my trip home.

The antibiotics were started last month so that'd be about 8 months after symptoms started.

I have not been able to find an LLMD in Taiwan. The only cases in Taiwan of Lyme are all imported (and only 17 cases since 2007) so I don't think there are any LLMDs here.

when I read what you describe, that doxy helped a bit, then nothing first...

then when you add most Buhner's basic borrelia protocol, you felt nothing special... until you added andro.

Then wrist and joint pains...

It looks to me that these are herxes and that the herbs are hitting Borrelia better than doxy (which in my opinion is more normal and common than uncommon).

These herbs are much more systemic, and some cross well the BBB, and that is another reason for your reaction: borrelia has more difficulty to deal with HUNDREDS of chemicals from these herbs, than with doxy.

If you feel stinging pains in places you thought were not il after adding an antimicrobiall, in my own experience, that means: herxes.

The pathogens colonize slowly different places of the body and only when the amount of inflammation gets important, you start having symptoms.

So most places that Borrelia has already installed are in fact symptomless. Add a good killer, that reaches joints, you'll fell the killing effect. In my case, the herx-pains were less like arhtritis, more like stinging needles inside my joints.

You gotta be patient, keep on that amount without increasing, continue acupuncture and LOADS of cleansing substances (TCM is good for that, so ask for liver, kidney, lymph herbs, gut herbs...)

If you don't clean, toxins circulate and you end up feeling too anxious, headaches, digestive problems etc.

And then, like 95% of people treating lyme who ignore binders, organ support or cleaning substances (even magnesium, omega 3 are part of that support for cleaning, antioxidation etc), you may get lost in between 2 poles:

what are infection symptoms?
What are toxin symptoms?

They do overlap, and the only way to know is to take loads of binders, in rotation or not, but always try new substances like chlorella, MSM, clay, charcoal, anything with sulphur, and organ supporting herbs such as milk thistle, solidago, bear garlic, nettle, etc.

I did energy testing and could tune my binders and organ support substances / herbs, so that I felt good most of the time (then herxes are kept to the minimum possible).

Then I knew somehow that some aching here and there were still infections, and kept taking Buhner, Cowden, photons, rife, nosodes, whatever I found that helped my body to kill.

And the more you experiment, the more you master your body's reactions.

Don't let toxins build up because it makes the immune system go slower. Then critters take advantage and also, because then you don't know if you are having toxicity symptoms or infections.

By what you describe, it seems it's more good than bad: I mean, it looks like andro is getting to places that had low grade infections (but assymptomatic still).

It can take a while for the debris to pile up and elicit a herxheimer. Think of your detox like draining a clogged sink. You can let the water run for a while without issue, but once it starts spilling over the edge every single extra drop is getting your floor wet. So you want to be adding just enough that it's never going to get to the top even when you're taking 3 times a day. After a few weeks add a little bit more. Remember it's not the herb that's filling the sink. It's dead bacteria. What you experienced is actually a very good sign that at least one or more of those herbs was killing some nasty ****. Take the dose way back. One herb at a time and slowly work up. This is the ONLY way i have been able to tolerate treatment. I tried many times to move at a faster pace under the delusion that I was handling it well and then later on I'd getting floored by the worst herxes imaginable. Sometimes they would hit me after a few days. Some times it literally took weeks to catch up to me. Now that doesn't happen much unless i get impatient. I still herx, but it's like a sharp pain here and there. Nothing overwhelming.

c009j said:
I'm drinking lemon juice water twice/day (1/day I add Apple Cider vinegar) and am doing dry skin brushing.

Not enough, man!!
This is absolutely not enough IN CASE you are herxing.

Activated charcoal is so mild, so easy to take.

I wouldn't take it for very long but certainly for shorter periods.
It was one of the easiest things I ever took!

You could then try clay (not same effect, but it could help a bit already...)

What is RA, in case you have it?

Either caused by auto immune / allergy or PATHOGENS!!

If auto immune OR pathogens, both are related to toxin build up in the joints!
Eg, heavy metals!

The treatment is not THAT different than lyme: conventional doctors will not treat the cause of RA probably (because they mostly assume, it's auto immune or they can't find the right pathogen, in most of the cases).

And they love cortisone, so ... bad thing if you have infections (be it lyme or not).

I got a positive Westernblot, but drs thought I did not have lyme!!!

I moved drs, and by the 3rd specialist, my Westernblot turned negative.
At that time, my symptoms were screaming, but the Westernblot turned negative!!

He said then for sure I did not have lyme!!

These exams are not conclusive, anyway.
And drs. will treat or not, as they feel like.

Here in Switzerland it is not the exam that matters.
If you got 2 weeks of antibiotics, it cannot be lyme.
So they say.

Blood exams play little role in their willingness to cooperate.

that is why I went on a solo adventure and did my own treatments.
Until I found proper help.

Then both practitioners immediately saw lyme, no need for blood tests.
And so I was helped, in the beginning.

I still did self treatment, the whole time.
They do not have time to look into all details, anyway.

So a lot has to be done home (supplements, diet, exercise, meditation, acupressure, lymphatic massage whatever....)

I rubbed a lot of essential oils in the beginning, to find relief. They also helped.

I agree with Psiloraptor: herxes may take time to build.

-------------------------
but your questions are still meaningful: is it disease, or are these herxes, side effects?

Well, if you just continue on your low supportive treatment (lemon, dry brushing, vinegar), well you will NEVER know.

You need NEURO TOXIN binders, potent ones!

Buy MSM in powder, and try it.
If you stand garlic /onions, you won't have much problems with it, because MSM is simply organic sulfur.

MSM is powerful to remove quite many toxins.

If you don't take many binders, you'll never know if you suffer from increased infections or from herxes.

By the way, letting the body full of neurotoxins will make lots of neuro symptoms appear first, ...

....then brain fog, then liver / kidney get clogged, as well as the lymph, ...

...then you get more gut dysbiosis, then you can't absorb the medicines nor food well...


You can bet that candida will show up then, then other parallel infections grow on toxic soup, ...

...and then, it will be very hard to know what you are fighting.

So, in my opinion, I would try a lot of neurotoxin binders, one by one, but surely, trying quite a few of them, in order to save future problems.

Whatever disease that causes inflammation will profit from binders, in my opinion.

And of course, all chronic diseases involving infections too!

If you'd like to lower cytokine reactions, one way is to fight infections, but not only:
the garbage from the fight has to go out!!

The body can react with inflammation against toxins. It's not always pathogens.

And toxins are the BEST FRIENDS of some pathogens such as Borrelia, candida, herpes, clostridium, bartonella, babesia, etc.

The more toxins, the less your immune system is healthy, the more they spread too...

Sorry to be so direct, but it took me so many months to learn that.
I learned the bad way......

I'm of a strong conviction that without cleaning, supporting detox organs (stuff like milk thistle is almost a must, in my opinion), supporting the nerves (electrolytes, Omega 3, earthening for example) are as important as killing anything.

I hope the tele dr will help you!!

But don't expect anyone to help you with everything.
A lot has to be done on your own.

Of course you can keep waiting to see, if you find proper help.
Some people can afford waiting.
It means, they are not that desperate yet!!

Some others cannot.
Well, that was my case. I had no option, really.

First off, did you get any Lyme testing done?

Update : found activated charcoal at another pharmacy. I think its either 200 of 250mg/capsule . How often should I take it and how many? I already know not to take it with the herbals or food. I plan to take one tonight before bed.

Kat- so you take 4 capsules/ day? I just read the package it's 300mg. And interesting about your LLMD, I think the lack of diagnosis so far is what lead me to Lyme. It would be nice to be absolutely sure though and since additional Lyme testing is not really an option here (except some tests I brought up in a previous post, it seemed those tests are also inaccurate according to what members of the forum said) I'd just like to try and rule everything else out I can by having these other tests. Again I will continue self-treating for Lyme in the meantime with the herbs, after I see what these results show and talk to the rheumatologist I'll maybe consider buying abx OTC, but I'm going to try and do that as a last resort. I'm hopeful (though admittedly skeptical) that the herbs will be enough.

As an aside the charcoal was super expensive here (the equivalent of about $60USD) next time I'll be ordering online.

Thanks for the info, I'll maybe go ahead and start with 2 capsules tonight then (the packaging says to take 2)

I don't think I can do Igenix from overseas as I think you need to have it ordered by a doctor. I don't know if this would be possible to do via a teledoc or not, but it seems unlikely.

I see. I think that perhaps that'd be possible. I don't know if this infection doctor would sign off though, she's pretty adamant about looking for other causes (though she hasn't said it for sure is not Lyme disease, which surprised me because the doctor's here tend to be pretty reliant on testing (as in, this was negative you're definitely fine or this was positive so you definitely have this). I also don't know if Igenix would be able to accept a foreign doctor's signature or not.

Do you remember the cost of Igenix testing? I did find out through here that there is a DNAconnexions urine test that I could do myself but that it costs $500 which isn't really doable right now except as a last resort.

Thanks for the information! I'll have to see what I can do. I'm thinking that if I don't have any positives on any of the other testing I have done that Lyme is probably the most likely culprit. I would like to have an MRI of my spine done at some point though as I'm still nervous about MS being the issue (even though MS seems to be a less likely cause because from what I've read 90% of people with MS have some lesions on a brain MRI and I didn't have any, also had the normal ABEP). Still I know that MS can cause lesions on the spine too so I would like to try and rule that out.

The charcoal seemed to help a little at the start of my day, I felt a little bit better than usual. Made it through work without taking a valium but did take a lot of ibuprofen(I upped my curcumin dosage to 1000mg 3/day this week but I'm not noticing any difference with it anymore). By the end of the day though my legs were (and still are) killing me again.

I just took the Horowitz questionnaire again to see where I'm at with that now. When I first joined this forum about a month ago someone posted it for me and I scored 41. This time it was 42. Interesting to me that it's only changed by 1 even though I feel worse overall right now than I did a month ago.

Post Edited (c009j) : 9/15/2017 10:34:55 AM (GMT-6)