Dr. Horrowitz on Persister Drugs - Getting to What I Think's Leading to a Cure

Girlie said...
Charles - LLMD's usually prescribe more than one protocol for their patients. So it wouldn't be Mepron and Zithromax for the entire time.
They would rotate through several protocols - and not only one antibiotic/antimalarial at a time.
Biofilm and cyst busters are added as well.
Bartonella and Babesia would be treated differently than Lyme.

This is pretty much standard in the Lyme world.

I wasn't implying that Mepron and Zithromax were treating all infections and that's all that would be needed.

Regardless, it's still to weak to start off considering what we know now in 2018. Times have changed Girlie, Dr. Zhang and Dr. Horrowitz recommend 3 antibiotic combos. Most LLMDs are not doing it, neither are they treating with IVs as much as Dr. Jemsek and Dr. Horrowitz does.

I'm sure they rotate protocols, but from my 7 year experience and what I read, they still use pretty weak protocols like 2 antibiotics at most. Some won't even treat with the right one's like flagyl, tindamax, rifampin, or alinia.

I'm sure it fluctuates state to state, some states have more aggressive LLMDs than others, but here in Michigan they still use weak antibiotics. So is I'm assuming western states, and southern states since they are in the most denial about Lyme and says it doesn't exist. Kind of like Climate Change... I'm sure there's some aggressive LLMDs in the north east states.... But fact of the matter is girlie, LLMDs are few far and between in other states, and if they do exist in your state, they start of with weak antibiotics, because 1st they are scared and dont want to lose their license because of the controversy behind lyme, but also 2nd, the liability of using antibiotics longterm. That's the reality of the situation!!!

A good portion of lyme literate doctors will only treat you for very long, probably 2 or 3 years at most, before they just dump you because of the liability... Lower level LLMDs aren't treating as aggressive as Dr. Horrowitz or Dr. Jemsek, nor are they treating as long as these Dr. H or Dr. J. Maybe in a few northeast states, but in 70% of the other states, nope....

ILADs recommends treating till all your symptoms are gone, most LLMDs aren't doing that... That's the reality of the situation...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/21/2017 11:31:27 PM (GMT-7)

There's no such thing as a "strong" and "weak" antibiotic.


Different antibiotics work on different organisms.


There are broad spectrum antibiotics, but that doesn't make them strong.


Some have more side effects than others, but that doesn't make them strong either.


flagyl, tindamax, rifampin, or alinia are not the "right ones". They could be, but it all depends on the patient, strain of lyme, co-infections etc.


Like Mustard Seed said, there is no breakthrough treatment that works for everyone, you just have to find out what works for you.

Charlie -

We're all sharing information from our experiences, our research.

Even the LLMD's don't always know what will work for one patient...it's trial and error.

You don't need to convince us...the proof will be in the pudding.

Are the 'new' persisters going to be the 'be all ' and 'end all'?

It's too soon to tell. How many people do I know that have used them and are in remission now?
none. That may change in the next 6 months. I hope so.

We see a lot of people come through this forum..and I think we'll hear if they have success with these persisters

Mustard Seed said...
Charlie, it seems like you may have had some bad experiences with LLMDs. How many did you see?

It's not the matter of having a bad experience with LLMDs. I'm just giving the reality of the situation, a lot of people don't like hearing the truth. LLMDs aren't following the top ILADs protocols nor are they up to date with the recent breakthrough on the John Hopkins study and how it relates to the recent success with persister cells. Which why I think it isn't getting enough publicity on the forums and why I'm bringing it up in discussion. People need to know...

I think a lot of lyme forums are still being overruled by alternative treatments and hypothetical information, we're well past that point now!!!

People need to know about the recent success with persister cell antibiotics, as well as how probably a good portion of LLMDs in your state probably aren't going to treat with them and why(which I mentioned above). This can become a huge road block for a lot of patients. Years ago, I had enough common sense to ditch the two LLMDs in Michigan and move onto an LLMD more educated in the latest protocols, which entailed using Flagyl with multiple antibiotics. That was like 6 years ago...

Mustard Seed said...


I would say the majority of people on this site who regularly see an LLMD are on multiple antibiotics, and not just the "weak" ones (as defined by...you?). There have been a lot of people through here on Tindamax, Flagyl, Rifampin, Ceftin, Doxy, etc..

The topic at hand was the breakthough on the new persister cell antibiotics being used, pyrazinamide and dapsone, not Tindamax, Flagyl, Rifampin, Ceftin, Doxy. I brought these up, because even a lot of the so called "LLMDs" aren't even using them. Lets not get off topic, this is what the thread was originally about, and I'd say most the lyme patient community hasn't even tried them yet.

There were also other persister cell drugs mentioned in the thread that a lot of patients haven't tried such as Daraprim and Disulfiram.

LymeSick 🌟 said...
There's no such thing as a "strong" and "weak" antibiotic.


Different antibiotics work on different organisms.


There are broad spectrum antibiotics, but that doesn't make them strong.

You don't want to use those particular words ok... It's a simple way to tell a person who's starting off with treatment which antibiotic has a tendency to work better than others.

Fact of the matter is, Dr. Sapi's research shows Tindamax dissolving biofilms by 90%, while Flagyl was more like 50%

Wouldn't you think patients who are new to Lyme Disease, which between the two antibiotics works stronger against biofilms? Same thing can be said about active borrelia.... between Doxy and Zithromax right?

Antiparasitic and antibacterial drugs also lose their strength against organism with time because of evolution! For instance, artemisinin was a strong antiparasitic against babesia 5-10 years ago, but due to evolution, it might not be a great choice since it's gotten weaker against the organism. Mepron may be a better choice.

By the way LymeSick, I didn't know you're so technical and educated about antibiotics, I saw your posts on herbals, I can't wait to hear which herbals work on active borrelia, biofilms, and a round bodies. Last time I looked you were asking whether or not herbals would even help you reach remission?

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3943612

Look, I'm not looking to argue with people. I have 7 years of dealing with this disease, I'm close to 100%. I'm running up to 5 miles a day, putting 300 lbs up on bench, almost symptom free other than fatigue.

I understand the truth hurts when a lot of things are broken down, but I'm looking to help people and give a fresh perspective on things, rather than the typical stuff being said on the forums.

I very much hope people consider using some of the treatment I recommended, as the top ILADS Doctors are using the same protocols and are helping a lot of lyme patients reach remission...

Everyone is entitled to still use herbals, rife machine, and the other alternative treatment if they want. I gave LymeSick my personal advice in his thread how I think herbals would work better with antibiotics, but by themselves it's not going to hit all forms of borrelia(biofilm+cysts) and get you into remisison. A lot of people didn't like hearing that honesty.

What I see now is a thread full of trolling and childish arguing...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/23/2017 2:13:37 AM (GMT-7)

"By the way LymeSick, I didn't know you're so technical and educated about antibiotics, I saw your posts on herbals, I can't wait to hear which herbals work on active borrelia, biofilms, and a round bodies. Last time I looked you were asking whether or not herbals would even help you reach remission?"

Actually some herbal constituents have shown activity against all forms of borrelia https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28644529

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4681354/

Oh and here's the kicker... Zhang himself, who's feet you're kneeling at for the dapsone study, in the midst of publishing a paper on the activity of herbal oils against stationary phase borrelia https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/17/130898

Yeah granted all this is pretty limited evidence which is not so different than the position we're in with antibiotics. Everything to date is in vitro research which doesn't necessarily translate to real life. Drugs can perform better or worse in vitro dependent on many different factors. But really what I'm driving at here is lose the 'tude dude. Your "honesty" and "the truth" is nothing more than "your truth" or "your educated opinion". You are entitled to such. But as it stands there is no clinical data for or against ANY treatment modality in regards to PLDS/Chronic Lyme. There is nothing objective about your decision to approach Lyme from your particular angle. You may very well be on to something, but then again so may someone else be. Whether antibiotics or herbs, or one antibiotic over another, or one herb over another... We all have a reason for choosing the path we do. Every single one of these paths is backed on some level by science or some form of deeper reasoning. What none of us have at this point is any objective evidence that one path is better than another. No one has yet discovered "the path". Maybe more research will uncover that. Or maybe maybe there will never be such thing as a generalized "best approach". Maybe health will always be a complex and individualized issue

Charlie - What percentage of improvement in overall and symptoms have you gained since starting persistor meds? Ex - Started at 50% now at 90%?

I haven't followed this thread too closely, but I agree with most of what you are saying. I think now we are just starting to scratch the surface of scientific research, studies, and LLMDs clinical experience backing up treatments. I think persistor meds are just 1 small piece to this large puzzle and every person is different, but they really have proven their worth in the last couple of years. From my research here are some of the best things you can do:

-Strengthen your immune system with vitamins, minerals, regulating hormonal imbalances, mild exercise, good diet, lots of water, reducing pain(neuropathy), lowering cytokines(using LDN and or liposomal curcumin), and getting 8 hours of sleep per night.

-Herbal treatments to compliment antibiotics. Use herbs that are known to work or clinically improve symptoms.

-Treating all forms of lyme. Spirochete, intra cellular, round body.

-Hyperthermia treatment.

-Treating co infections with combinations of meds to prevent resistance.

-Treating persistors with dapsone, daptomycin, tetracycline, bactrim, daraprim, pza, and liposomal oil of oregano. I saw a post about some cephalosporins working against persistors? I don't know which ones or if they all work on persistors.

-Pulse therapy. Proven to shorten treatment duration, less harmful amounts of medication, better for your good bacteria, allows time to detox, and works against persistors. (In vitro at least)

-IV antibiotics for greater penetration. I think this is called drug uptake. Joints and the brain are hard to reach and only some orals offer good penetration.

-Biofilm treatments - Stevia, digestive enzymes, xylitol, calcium edta, tindamax, and persistor meds (I think) work to reduce biofilms.

-Treating yeast overgrowth. You should do this in conjunction with abx to prevent yeast overgrowth in the first place, but sometimes it still gets out of hand.

-Antiparasitics for intestinal parasites.

-Some of the other, but still potentially important items: Testing and treating for mold if you have it, taking binders, testing for and supplementing for MTHFR defects if you have it, treating viruses, supporting liver detox with NAC/ALA/Glutathione, heavy metal treatments.

If you do this and aren't in remission... well! Try again, lol. I don't plan on ever giving up until im 99.9%

Post Edited (Sheeks175) : 11/23/2017 3:35:09 PM (GMT-7)