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Armin Lab results, please help!

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Posted 3/21/2018 6:14 PM (GMT -5)
Hey everyone! It's been years since I posted, but I hope you're all hanging in there and seeing positive progress in your ongoing treatments! smile

A bit of background...I am a NH native and have been suffering with Lyme Disease for my entire life (29 years--I listed my symptoms in previous posts). In February 2015 I received a positive ELISA for Lyme, but a negative Western Blot (Quest, I believe). I then tested again through Igenex in September 2015. My results were as follows:

IGENEX IGM result: Positive
CDC/NYS result: Negative

23-25 kDa: +
31 kDa: ++
41kDa: IND

CD57: 14

IGENEX IGG result: Negative
CDC/NYS result: Negative

31 kDa: IND
41 kDa: +

The remaining bands were all negative.

B. microti, IgM: 20
B. microti, IgG: <40

(IgM <20 = negative IgG <40 = negative)


My Igenex Babesia test was equivocal, and my Bartonella test came back negative. I was clinically diagnosed with Lyme disease (thought to be congenital) in 2015 but my LLMD nearly killed me by negligently prescribing powerful antibiotics for months that caused me to be bedridden with extreme panic attacks, completely paralysed digestion and autonomic function, dangerously elevated liver enzymes, skyrocketing blood ammonia levels, etc. I stopped all antibiotics and relocated to Australia to heal naturally.

I recently sent my blood through to Armin Labs after 2.5 years of self-treatment using a combination of the Buhner protocol, probiotics, various vitamins, minerals, and supplements, as well as eating an anti-inflammatory Autoimmune Paleo protocol diet. I'm feeling much better, but still encountering residual physical and mental symptoms.

Only one Armin test came back positive--the rest were all negative, but the values given for the negatives were greater than 0.
My question is, despite the ratios given—does any reading over .00 indicate an immune response (the equivalent of an Igenex “IND”) or is it insignificant?



ARMIN LAB RESULTS:

Borrelia burgdorferi C-6-ELISA: 0.24
(<0.9 = negative)


Borrelia burgdorferi SeraSpot IgG OspC (B.b. sensu stricto) + positive


Tickplex Plus
B.burg. +afz. +gar. IgG : negative 0.358
B.burg. +afz. +gar. IgM : negative 0.303
B.burg. +afz. +gar. + round bod. IgG : negative 0.406
B.burg. +afz. +gar. + round bod. IgM : negative 0.308
Babesia microti IgG: negative 0.317
Babesia microti IgM: negative 0.455
Bartonella henselae IgG: negative 0.272
Bartonella henselae IgM: negative 0.415
Ehrlichia chaffeensis IgG: negative 0.336
Ehrlichia chaffeensis IgM: negative 0.312
Rickettsia atari IgG: negative 0.332
Rickettsia atari IgM: negative 0.425
Coxsackie Virus IgG: negative 0.405
Coxsackie Virus IgM: negative 0.165
Epstein-Barr Virus IgG: negative 0.458
Epstein-Barr Virus IgM: negative 0.301
Human Parvovirus B19 IgG: negative 0.443
Human Parvovirus B19 IgM: negative 0.388
Mycoplasma pneum. + fermentans IgG: negative 0.370
Mycoplasma pneum. + fermentans IgM: negative 0.419

Ratio 0.01 - 0.89 = NEGATIVE
Ratio 0.90 – 0.99 = WEAK
Ratio >= 1.00 = POSITIVE


I realise it's usually a given that co-infections are present with Lyme, but I really need to know definitively—and to preserve what little sanity I’ve retained— whether I have Babesia, Bartonella, et al. Thanks so much for any and all advice, I am so grateful for your responses!

Post Edited (trompeloy) : 3/21/2018 5:19:50 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 3/21/2018 6:35 PM (GMT -5)
You do have a positive Lyme result (Sera spot) and you also were Igenex positive for Lyme in 2015.

Did the LLMD not clinically diagnose you with any coinfections?

You can’t really rely on the testing for the coinfections.

I don’t know if you can consider anything above 0 with the Armin lab tests to be equivalent to an IND with Igenex.
You could call the lab and ask if it’s possible .

Did you only do Buhners Lyme herbs? If so, why not treat Bart and Babs herbally ?
Posted 3/22/2018 5:25 AM (GMT -5)
I live in Germany only a few hundred km apart from armin labs.

as i can see you have not made the ellispot in armin labs.
Posted 3/22/2018 6:36 AM (GMT -5)

trompeloy said...

In February 2015 I received a positive ELISA for Lyme,
...


CD57: 14


these plus the symptoms are good enough for me to say u probably have it in latent phase. it's there, but lying under the radar. you are doing good to go with diet and herbs.

unless your symptoms become severe, i would not aggressively treat it, i mean, you should be lucky you just have little residual symptoms from it.

so i dont know how to answer your question, let's say there is enough evidence to state you had lyme in your body for a long time, given the low CD score and positive elisa. This means lyme is going to always be in your body, no matter what u do, but just in a dormant/latent form. Now, having an immune response or not also has to do with your symptoms, and if they get too much in the way with your life. If they are just minor then i would just continue to do what u do (diet, herbs etc...) and hope you stay like this for a long time.

as you know even the wealthiest of us that are sick, like Yolanda, Thalia, Ally Hilfiger, etc... they all still report having some residual symptoms... years after they have pumped millions of $$ in treatments both experimental, traditional, herbal or non herbal in all parts of the world, without 100% success.... So there's no point in seeking absolute complete remission in my opinion. If the symptoms are low enough that they dont interfere with your life, i'd call that an absolutely wonderful situation and let's check in 10 years later when maybe the doctors will be smarter about how to treat this disease....
Posted 3/24/2018 7:49 AM (GMT -5)
Thanks for your replies, it really means a lot to me and I value your insight so much! I've used this forum as a huge support in my solitary struggle for the past couple years, and you all have given me hope when nothing and no one else has.

Girlie, my LLMD was very dismissive of my concerns regarding co-infections and only prescribed high doses of clarithromycin and amoxicillin despite many symptoms pointing towards Bart and Babesia. I occasionally take Artemisinin but even low doses cause brain herxes (anxiety, unease, sensory integration dysfunction, looming dread and derealisation) after a few days--obviously a sign of effectiveness, but incompatible with my lifestyle, as I'm working full time and have no medical insurance and can't afford to be physically and psychologically impaired. I've been taking Serrapeptase and Lumbrokinase which seem to help a bit with my energy levels and arthritic inflammation--are they known to combat co-infections as well?

mpost, if all the money in the world can't successfully eliminate Lyme, what hope is there? Do you personally recommend any treatment for chronic, late stage Lyme beyond diet and herbs? My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease, and I suspect she's had Lyme for at least 30 years and passed it on to me in utero. Even if the bacteria is kept in remission for a decades, it can still have catastrophic consequences in the long term, and one of my biggest fears is progressively losing my mind and capacity for autonomy and independence.
Posted 3/24/2018 10:23 AM (GMT -5)

trompeloy said...

mpost, if all the money in the world can't successfully eliminate Lyme, what hope is there? Do you personally recommend any treatment for chronic, late stage Lyme beyond diet and herbs? My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease, and I suspect she's had Lyme for at least 30 years and passed it on to me in utero. Even if the bacteria is kept in remission for a decades, it can still have catastrophic consequences in the long term, and one of my biggest fears is progressively losing my mind and capacity for autonomy and independence.

you cannot remove it but u can put it in remission with a lot of treatment. but you will never be 100% symptom free and always have to watch for relapse. as long as that is understood... it does worth treating it because u can have a life if you do, even if u have some pains here and there. but if you do not treat it at all, you wont...
Posted 3/24/2018 10:41 AM (GMT -5)

mpost said...

trompeloy said...

mpost, if all the money in the world can't successfully eliminate Lyme, what hope is there? Do you personally recommend any treatment for chronic, late stage Lyme beyond diet and herbs? My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease, and I suspect she's had Lyme for at least 30 years and passed it on to me in utero. Even if the bacteria is kept in remission for a decades, it can still have catastrophic consequences in the long term, and one of my biggest fears is progressively losing my mind and capacity for autonomy and independence.

you cannot remove it but u can put it in remission with a lot of treatment. but you will never be 100% symptom free and always have to watch for relapse. as long as that is understood... it does worth treating it because u can have a life if you do, even if u have some pains here and there. but if you do not treat it at all, you wont...

Yet some people say they've reached "symptom free" on the occasional "cured" posts more common around new years time. Some do come back for a shorter duration, some you never hear from again. Positivity is great as long as its honest.
Posted 3/24/2018 11:19 AM (GMT -5)

mpost said...

trompeloy said...

In February 2015 I received a positive ELISA for Lyme,
...


CD57: 14


these plus the symptoms are good enough for me to say u probably have it in latent phase. it's there, but lying under the radar. you are doing good to go with diet and herbs.

unless your symptoms become severe, i would not aggressively treat it, i mean, you should be lucky you just have little residual symptoms from it.

so i dont know how to answer your question, let's say there is enough evidence to state you had lyme in your body for a long time, given the low CD score and positive elisa. This means lyme is going to always be in your body, no matter what u do, but just in a dormant/latent form. Now, having an immune response or not also has to do with your symptoms, and if they get too much in the way with your life. If they are just minor then i would just continue to do what u do (diet, herbs etc...) and hope you stay like this for a long time.

as you know even the wealthiest of us that are sick, like Yolanda, Thalia, Ally Hilfiger, etc... they all still report having some residual symptoms... years after they have pumped millions of $$ in treatments both experimental, traditional, herbal or non herbal in all parts of the world, without 100% success.... So there's no point in seeking absolute complete remission in my opinion. If the symptoms are low enough that they dont interfere with your life, i'd call that an absolutely wonderful situation and let's check in 10 years later when maybe the doctors will be smarter about how to treat this disease....

They all report having residual symptoms? You've read that?

I do know people who don't have any residual symptoms - and they weren't wealthy either.
Posted 3/24/2018 11:21 AM (GMT -5)

trompeloy said...
Thanks for your replies, it really means a lot to me and I value your insight so much! I've used this forum as a huge support in my solitary struggle for the past couple years, and you all have given me hope when nothing and no one else has.

Girlie, my LLMD was very dismissive of my concerns regarding co-infections and only prescribed high doses of clarithromycin and amoxicillin despite many symptoms pointing towards Bart and Babesia. I occasionally take Artemisinin but even low doses cause brain herxes (anxiety, unease, sensory integration dysfunction, looming dread and derealisation) after a few days--obviously a sign of effectiveness, but incompatible with my lifestyle, as I'm working full time and have no medical insurance and can't afford to be physically and psychologically impaired. I've been taking Serrapeptase and Lumbrokinase which seem to help a bit with my energy levels and arthritic inflammation--are they known to combat co-infections as well?

mpost, if all the money in the world can't successfully eliminate Lyme, what hope is there? Do you personally recommend any treatment for chronic, late stage Lyme beyond diet and herbs? My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease, and I suspect she's had Lyme for at least 30 years and passed it on to me in utero. Even if the bacteria is kept in remission for a decades, it can still have catastrophic consequences in the long term, and one of my biggest fears is progressively losing my mind and capacity for autonomy and independence.

Well, that could be your answer - coinfections (most - if not all of us - have at least one..) need to be treated.
Posted 3/24/2018 11:22 AM (GMT -5)

mpost said...

trompeloy said...

mpost, if all the money in the world can't successfully eliminate Lyme, what hope is there? Do you personally recommend any treatment for chronic, late stage Lyme beyond diet and herbs? My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease, and I suspect she's had Lyme for at least 30 years and passed it on to me in utero. Even if the bacteria is kept in remission for a decades, it can still have catastrophic consequences in the long term, and one of my biggest fears is progressively losing my mind and capacity for autonomy and independence.

you cannot remove it but u can put it in remission with a lot of treatment. but you will never be 100% symptom free and always have to watch for relapse. as long as that is understood... it does worth treating it because u can have a life if you do, even if u have some pains here and there. but if you do not treat it at all, you wont...

ummm...this is not true - you can be 100% symptom free....
Posted 3/26/2018 3:21 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...

ummm...this is not true - you can be 100% symptom free....

if former Ms Foster spent 500k on treatments, traveled the world, and she still has symptoms, please allow me to be skeptical i can ever be symptom free...

/nypost.com/2017/09/11/yolanda-hadid-made-her-own-poop-lab-to-treat-her-lyme-disease/

This is quite an impressive list for any of us here...

I will however settle for "minor symptoms here and there in a few days per month". For me that would be... awesome !

Just trying to set my expectations right...
Posted 3/26/2018 6:12 PM (GMT -5)

mpost said...


if former Ms Foster spent 500k on treatments, traveled the world, and she still has symptoms, please allow me to be skeptical i can ever be symptom free...

I will however settle for "minor symptoms here and there in a few days per month". For me that would be... awesome !

Just trying to set my expectations right...


“....but you will never be 100% symptom free ...”

It’s fine for you to be skeptical... but “you will never be 100% symptom free” is not correct. You don’t know that. People do get to symptom free. Does everyone? I doubt it.

It appears that Yolanda only did a few months of Pharma - or did I miss something?
Posted 3/27/2018 12:12 AM (GMT -5)
yeah Girlie, i dunno. I'm a bit depressed. For 6 months i was almost symptom free and in the 7th month all my neuro symptoms came back, while on treatment, and without any change on my behalf.

So yeah , a bit depressing. Sorry for the negative vibe...

I am not sure i can get dapsone in europe, but i really don't know what else to do next ... Nothing seems to be working for me...
Posted 3/27/2018 7:27 PM (GMT -5)

mpost said...
yeah Girlie, i dunno. I'm a bit depressed. For 6 months i was almost symptom free and in the 7th month all my neuro symptoms came back, while on treatment, and without any change on my behalf.

So yeah , a bit depressing. Sorry for the negative vibe...

I am not sure i can get dapsone in europe, but i really don't know what else to do next ... Nothing seems to be working for me...

Aww that really sucks! Nothing changed and symptoms came back...what does your Dr. say about it?

Are you continuing with that same protocol or have you changed it up now?
Posted 3/28/2018 1:58 AM (GMT -5)
dunno, i just had a call with him before this started , and we were discussing maybe stopping treatment because i was close to asymptomatic. but he said better extend abx through may. then a week later. bang, everything returned smile
- eye issues
- brain fog
- dizziness
- pins and needles in legs
- insomnia
- tiredness
- GI issues

This is textbook MS relapse after 6+ months being asymptomatic, this is how it presents. if you have relapsing remitting MS, you can have no symptoms for a while, then you get a flare, leaves u with neuro damage, then nothing happens for several months (except lingering damage from previous flare) then again bang, and so on ...RRMS.

i wonder if any other people here experience lyme like this, in flares every several months , or it's a continuous issue with symptoms getting worse and better every week or month.

minocycline helps MS too, so no wonder it helped me. but i don't think we are not going anywhere with this treatment. anyway, ill continue to take it at least till may, but i am beginning to think nothing will help except the "biologics" (ms therapy). or maybe MCAS treatment.

in terms of antimicrobials, I can't do much more than 2 years on herbs and then take 3 antibiotics in parallel plus artemisinin for 8+ months. I am not concerned about taking antibiotics for longer, like say 2 years.... but im concerned about the pattern of the disease.... it does not sound very much like lyme any more to me. asymptomatic for 6 months then flares ? Girlie, is that how you experience it?

maybe try dapsone, but these options are not available yet in europe to treat lyme... here is excusilvely used to treat leper.

ok, i need to get leprosy from somewhere smile does anyone know an otherwise decent and nice leper patient willing to infect others ? i volunteer. loooool.
Posted 3/28/2018 2:24 AM (GMT -5)

mpost said...
dunno, i just had a call with him before this started , and we were discussing maybe stopping treatment because i was close to asymptomatic. but he said better extend abx through may. then a week later. bang, everything returned smile
- eye issues
- brain fog
- dizziness
- pins and needles in legs
- insomnia
- tiredness
- GI issues

This is textbook MS relapse after 6+ months being asymptomatic, this is how it presents. if you have relapsing remitting MS, you can have no symptoms for a while, then you get a flare, leaves u with neuro damage, then nothing happens for several months (except lingering damage from previous flare) then again bang, and so on ...RRMS.

i wonder if any other people here experience lyme like this, in flares every several months , or it's a continuous issue with symptoms getting worse and better every week or month.

minocycline helps MS too, so no wonder it helped me. but i don't think we are not going anywhere with this treatment. anyway, ill continue to take it at least till may, but i am beginning to think nothing will help except the "biologics" (ms therapy). or maybe MCAS treatment.

in terms of antimicrobials, I can't do much more than 2 years on herbs and then take 3 antibiotics in parallel plus artemisinin for 8+ months. I am not concerned about taking antibiotics for longer, like say 2 years.... but im concerned about the pattern of the disease.... it does not sound very much like lyme any more to me. asymptomatic for 6 months then flares ? Girlie, is that how you experience it?

maybe try dapsone, but these options are not available yet in europe to treat lyme... here is excusilvely used to treat leper.

ok, i need to get leprosy from somewhere smile does anyone know an otherwise decent and nice leper patient willing to infect others ? i volunteer. loooool.

So, yes with MS the remitting part doesn't bring them back to symptom free...just some healing/abatement until the next relapse..etc.
But you were close to symptom free - I don't think that's usually the case with RRMS.

Your same symptoms returned - but not worse, right?

Besides ... Don't you think MS is most likely an infectious disease? And that's why they are getting responses with minicycline?

No, mine isn't like that.
Most of the symptoms that have left - have not come back. Maybe a few are waxing and waning...I now and then have a recurrence of minor twitching....and recently me neck pain...I'm wondering if it is Bart coming back now that I've abandoned Bart treatment for Babs treament.

But several have been gone for a year or longer now: tailbone pain, lymph node swelling, bakers cysts, knee pain, finger joint pain, etc.

Do you not have some symptoms that have gone and are still gone?

I think you can get dapsone on ADC
Posted 3/28/2018 2:26 AM (GMT -5)
If I was almost asymptomatic for six months I think I'd feel optimistic.

If you got there once..you can do it again.


I do believe that.
Posted 3/28/2018 2:30 AM (GMT -5)
mpost....have you thought about pulsing ? Maybe after only a couple months of almost symptom free you should start pulsing.

This is one of the reasons Dr J pulses - so the immune system starts to kick in on the drug holidays...it starts to take care of the bacteria. When you're taking abx daily - 24/7 the immune system doesn't need to work.
Posted 3/28/2018 2:37 AM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
mpost....have you thought about pulsing ? Maybe after only a couple months of almost symptom free you should start pulsing.

This is one of the reasons Dr J pulses - so the immune system starts to kick in on the drug holidays...it starts to take care of the bacteria. When you're taking abx daily - 24/7 the immune system doesn't need to work.

that is a good point, you know, before treating my CD57 were 124 or so ... after a few months in treatment, CD went to 90 then 3 months later to 70. and at that point i felt the best ....

now in the last bloodwork two weeks ago , my CD has jumped back to 117. And my symptoms are again back. i am just using CD57 to see general immune function, nothing else. So it seems to me like this:

- antibiotics in my case do not kill anything, they induce a temporary immune suppression that makes the symptoms go away for a while, say between 6 months and 1 year
- after this, the immune system adapts and overcomes the anti-inflammatory effect of antibiotics, and kicks back in and there u go, symptoms are back.


u can see this patter with mino treatment for MS in the best trial yet
www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1608889


"CONCLUSIONS
The risk of conversion from a clinically isolated syndrome to multiple sclerosis was significantly lower with minocycline than with placebo over 6 months but not over 24 months. "

so on short term mino helped a lot, but after 2 years there were no differences between ppl treated with mino and people not treated with mino ... what does that tell you ?

about pulsing... i just follow the LLMD scheme. he pulses zitrhomax, but not the rest... so i just follow that. if i plan to treat myself i'll probably go back to herbs and do a full buhner protocol, but i want to make sure i do not have any regrets before becoming my own doctor... so im trying to try all the other "sane" alternatives before that...
Posted 3/28/2018 2:41 AM (GMT -5)
My LLND didn't pulse either..but that didn't stop me. nono
Posted 3/28/2018 2:46 AM (GMT -5)
So how long ago did you relapse?

Maybe if you continue with treatment...you will get there again quickly....it might take a few kicks st the can.


So did it tske a year to get to that point of almost symptom free?

Maybe you will get there more quickly this next time.
Posted 3/28/2018 9:36 AM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
So how long ago did you relapse?
Maybe if you continue with treatment...you will get there again quickly....it might take a few kicks st the can.
So did it tske a year to get to that point of almost symptom free?
Maybe you will get there more quickly this next time.

- i relapsed this week
- it took around 8 months on antibiotics.
i take:
- mino - 100mg twice a day
- rifampin 300mg twice a day
- zithromax 500mg mon weds fri
- artemisinin 400mg twice a day
- serrapeptase 250000IU twice a day

plus lots of other supplements not worth of mentioning here, NAC, Q10, D3, etc...

dunno, we'll see. thanks!
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