Low lymphocyte T cells and low Immunoglobulin A an G, (people w/ low CD57 & LLMD's should know this)

You know there are some LLMD's who do IVIG.


The pediatric LLMD DR. J. prescribes it for some patients. It's apparently VERY expensive.

astroman said...
Girlie: yours: Alpha 1 Globulin 2.1 1.0-3.0g/L

Alpha 2 Globulin 6.7 5.0-9.0g/L

Beta Globulin 7.6 5.0-10.0g/L

Gamma Globulin 7.7 5.0-12.5g/L

this is different than what I see in the US. Sometimes here its stated in "class #'s", i've not had it that way though.

Your good there though.

Yes IV immunoglobulins cost a lot, thats why I want to look at the cause, the precursors and start with food / digestion issues.

Why do IV forever if you can correct the cause. Good Immunologists (very rare find) look at everything before sticking a $ IV in you. I found two that might help me if I qualify their pre-screen (they are in demand). No hurry to get the IV even if they suggest. Been like this a long time, not dead yet.

The IVIG isn’t forever - it’s to help while the patients are treating.


I’ve seen it mentioned on threads about nerve damage - wonder how it helps with that.

Astro - I’m curious - what conditions would an immunologist treat with long term abx?

Most, not all, B cells are used for bacterial maintenance and removal. Most, not all, T cells, are used to decrease viral replication and debris removal. The most common IgG is Anti-gal. It is used to counter the alpha-gal which is ingested with animal protein and produced in bacteria supported by animal protein.

Look beyond the numbers into the biochemical processing. If your levels on something are acutely low, they are being utilized for their purpose. If they are low after a chronic involvement, they have been down regulated to decrease oxidative stress. I'd look into sulfur eliminating bacteria like Desulfuromnas, Proteus, or even Pseudomonas. They are only part of the problem. You don't have enough glutathione which means it's being burnt up on free radicals OR you aren't getting thru the pathway.

With your history of soft structure problems, I'd surmise that you had a protozoan issue that alters lipids in sphingomyelin formation.

One thing to remember is that a test is a "snapshot in time." It tells you what that level is at that time. A major problem is that our physiological processes are not linear. The fluctuate up and down depending on the variables of nutrient availability, toxic load, electrolyte levels, pathogen load, food intake, and others. I see patients all the time that have normal lab values but they struggle with things that the lab values say they are OK with. We are not linear.

Intermittent fasting is a proven way to prolong life. When we eat, it is both a good and bad thing. It is good in we get essential nutrients that we need. It is bad because we must break down those nutrients and that causes oxidative stress. It also increases immune response which increases oxidative stress. Nutrient deficient patients (like Lyme patients) often need the nutrients so fasting for them may be issue. Those nutrients also support unwanted pathogens so there is a point where calorie intake is detrimental to everyone. Who and when is the question.

I don't know if I'm allowed to add snippets from an article on a different website. This came from truthcures.org:

"It turns out, CLD is a condition of chronic immune deficiency and is physiologically the same as AIDS or post-sepsis syndrome, or "immune paralysis," where the reactivated viruses, secondary opportunistic infections, tissue and organ damage (brain, gut), are what's causing the ongoing illness."

Allen Steere talking about how lyme is like post sepsis with the Leukemia-like, EBV-transformed immune cells: /www.truthcures.org/steere-1986

astroman said...
CLD = chronic lyme disease?

Yes chronic lyme disease.

I remember reading on that website months ago where it listed out in detail about 9 things that lyme does in the body to evade the immune system and one of them was catching B cells while they are still young and mutating them. Although, I can't seem to find the info now. I don't know if I'm just not looking in the right place or if something was changed or moved.

astroman said...
Well, its far from AIDS, but yes its been said / known quite some time that lyme drops CD57 (which is T and B cells).

I would like to read details from the Dr who first noted this, as this point on line its "he said she said".

As far as remaining T/B cell levels after treatment and symptoms relief (too common), no known LLMD has mentioned / announced a good way to correct this. Its mostly ignored. Bad idea.

I know that that website lists sources and studies and things like that. After reading the things on the website, it kinda leaves you with a feeling of "well what can we even do about it..." because as they say it destroys the immune system. Like I was saying up there, Idk but fasting does regenerate a lot of things.. It gives us access to stem cells to literally regrow things and repair. So I'm not sure. That, or actual stem cell therapy which is you know expensive.

And how do you know this for sure? Available sources or links?

I dont believe I have any high pathogen levels. As I mentioned, my symptoms have greatly improved.

Some LLMDs do IVIG apparently, while symptoms are active. It looks like they are doing this for combating active lyme, not so sure about them doing this after lyme is controlled.

It certainly does no harm in trying to figure out where the problem starts to show up down the chain via testing and a Dr who has experience in this area. Its not like I picked any Dr I could find. Many people like to guess in the lyme community with theories and such. That's all good, but real tests are not such a bad idea either.

Post Edited (astroman) : 8/2/2018 2:49:15 PM (GMT-6)

Yes, of course we all have pathogens, within reason. Including "non-limies" with immunodeficiency, who receive IVIG monthly.

I doubt that I have some huge, uncommon pathogen load left in me. If I did, it would be somewhat obvious.

On that note, I've no longer had raging lyme infection symptoms for more than two years now. It very slowly went away. What little is left some days, might just be my autoimmune (similar symptoms).

I do have autoimmune conditions (20 years), some managed, some not, and this Immunodeficiency Diagnosis from a Dr who is very knowledgeable in this specialized field. These conditions could have been from lyme............ or environment, genes or a combination of all this.

Without proof of cause, I look the whole picture. And investigate it from all angles, not just from a lyme point of view. I do unfortunately have autoimmune genes, and will find out if I have immunodeficiency genes as well.

There have been some posts here from the past (not many details) where people mentioned IVIG from an LLMD, with active lyme. None came back and said they got sicker and anything. A migraine seems to be the worst side effect. Scary thing is LLMDs have very little, if any, experience in treating the immune system vs this Immunologist Dr I found.

My primary goal going to this Dr is to figure out the details of my dis-functional immune cells, because details matter and can change a course of action, if needed now or in the future. There are tests that can help identify where the start of dysfunction lies. That in my opinion is priceless. As far as test accuracy, this Dr uses several different labs (comparing) for the sake of test accuracy.

I'm in no hurry to actually get IVIG treatment, but if it comes down to a trial with it, I'm in better condition to try it than many others who already have done this while they were ill. Its usually covered by insurance for Primary Immunodeficiency but not for lyme.

Post Edited (astroman) : 8/3/2018 12:14:24 AM (GMT-6)

astroman said...
Yes, of course we all have pathogens, within reason. Including "non-limies" with immunodeficiency, who receive IVIG monthly.

I doubt that I have some huge, uncommon pathogen load left in me. If I did, it would be somewhat obvious.

The most prominent theory on why we age is the shortening of telomeres. The polyamines I used to talk about all the time, they directly affect the shortening of telomeres through increased transcription. This is directly associated with our GI environment. Our GI bacteria determine the amount of oxidative stress we have and how we age. Those bacteria are all interconnected so when you say huge pathogen, I am assuming you are referencing any pathogen that directly affects other bacteria enough to alter physiology. They all can do that, just to varying degrees. There is no one huge pathogen. Borrelia is devastating because of its affects on other "normal" bacteria and how it alters biological processes. For some people, it is devastating, but for others, it is not. There are other environmental factors that determine how hard borrelia hits them.

An altered GI flora could cause any problems you may have. An autoimmune issue is a GI issue and the glycosolation of proteins in the GI tract directly affects not only bacterial virulence but also cell to cell signalling and interaction. When we have health issues, multiple things are going wrong with multiple bacteria. Your "normal" gram negative bacteria are a problem. Borrelia's glycoproteins can somehow "alter" communication in normal gram negative bacteria (lectins may play a role) and increases alpha-gal production. Our body makes more anti-gal (IgG) to counter act it. People like myself who have a protozoan can't even eat meat without having increased inflammation. That same inflammation occurs in everyone, just to a lesser extent. This is due to an increase in gram negative anaerobes. Is this why IVIG therapy works, by lowering IL-10 and the bad effects of these gram negative bacteria? It has been shown to decrease IL-10. Either way, oxidative stress is the key and if you have problems, you have too much oxidative stress.

Thymus gland issues or bone marrow issues cause oxidative stress. It's the end product of every negative thing that happens in our body.

The environment of your GI tract is why you maxed out on improving. You can only improve as much as your GI tract improves. You can't grow a garden on concrete, and you can't fix a GI tract when you don't know what is causing the poor environment.

It could be any or all of the following:
Damage to tight juxtaposed cells could be permanent.
Undetected nutrient deficiency prevents realigning of microbiome.
Epigenetic shifts may not allow for full realigning of our microbiome.
Unknown pathogens prevent realigning our microbiome.

Well, keep in mind, i'm also ahead of people here as far as diminished lyme symptoms go. So im concentrating on what health issues I have left, and making my gut the healthiest its ever been in my entire 50 decades.....since gut health has an impact on immune and autoimmune.

For people with an array of lyme symptoms, this info is good to know if your immune cell health does not normalize after lyme/Co treatment.

Contrary to some opinions, eradicating the infections does not mean your immune system will always normalize on its own since some of it IS genetically influenced and or can be changed by long term infection. What we can change is gut health and this will help immune cell health/function - to varying degrees.

From what ive read the link between immune cells and autoimmune is not understood yet, although there are some not so concrete theories out there.

I have treated gut health several times, each time improving and understanding my gut a little better.

Currently, I have established my after lyme treatment immune base line by several labs doing the same tests. All im doing to improve this right now is diet. Diet that was scientifically chosen for my body in steps, instead of guessing.

I have another appt with a special immune clinic next month for another set of opinions as I know how this this current Dr feels and know where this Drs immune knowledge limitations and personal opinions now lie.

Again, people with active infection might have a healthy immune system after lyme treatment (which I'm done with).

Additional:

One interesting thing found per labs and with Drs opinion: even though my regular B cells were far under-range, my B "memory" cells were good. B memory cells are just that - what makes /increases your "immunity" to certain illness after having it. **B memory cells cant do their job unless regular B "target marker" cells were once working properly, which suggests that I was not born this way or else I would have been a very sick child. So this Dr wondered what happened.**(?).... Again, I mentioned I had lyme, which this Dr kind of blew over as far as history/info goes. They don't "do" new info so well that was not presented in Med School.

Post Edited (astroman) : 9/13/2018 11:35:33 AM (GMT-6)