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Posted 8/22/2018 1:13 PM (GMT -5)

LymeDown said...
If you have co-infection I would address them before pulsing for lyme. I have read that babs and bart are fast replicators and wont be treated while pulsing for lyme. Therefore potentially dangerous plan. Remember, co- infection doesn't necessarily mean less lethal. You don't want bart or babs to flourish.




Dr. J pretty much starts with Babesia treatment (after a few weeks of stabilization) - but it does include lyme antibiotics. And it's pulsed from the get-go.
The bart and babs replicate faster than lyme (days versus weeks I've read) - but still not quick as in hours like other bacteria.

So, it is safe to pulse babesia and bartonella.
Posted 8/22/2018 1:14 PM (GMT -5)

LymeDown said...
Dapsone 50 mg in the AM.
Doxy 100 mg AM and PM
Rifabutin (not sure of mg but sure it's pretty standard) AM and PM

Also taking various other supps and herbs.
DETOX IS HUUUGE...clay and zeolite, hibiscus powder, charcoal, and a couple of aminos that extract the ammonia the bb leaves in your system. I recently discovered to take MORE clay. And, important: lots of Milk Thistle to get the liver functioning efficiently. More water.

Also taking Otoba Bark, and cats claw concentrate, and a few others. But, I believe the main focal point and why I am improving is the dapsone, doxy, and rifabutin, 5 on 5 off and the continuous aggressive detox. I was doing all these herbs plus about 10 others from Beunhers book prior to dapsone, and for over a year! Dapsone, doxy, rifabutin, + detox seems to be the game changer for me. And I have had many complications: 4 sinus surgeries. This means Scar Tissue= good place for bb to hide and difficult to reach due to less blood flow there. And a very lyme troubled marriage where I was labelled as "withdrawn" by my spouse over a period of over 10 years. And hell yes I was. You all know what it takes just to make it through the day with this crap! My spouse never accepted I am sick. You all know that is major stress and how important is is to shed the stressors from your life. Well after 22 years of marriage she is divorcing. So more stress. But in spite of all this, dapsone is still doing it. I feel real hope right now and having good days not felt in years. I have managed to keep my career through all this and feel I may pop out on the other side, look back and say WOW what a darn big bump in the road that was! I am 53 and decided to get in shape 3 years ago. Right now I lift weights twice a week and also do Body Pump Class once a week. You too can do this. Start slow and dont start with cardio, only weights. Pace yourself. This will take mind over matter because your body won't want to oblige your mind. But it can be done with big determination. You MUST work out to beat lyme!

If anyone is interested, pm me with your phone number and I will text you all photos of what I take. Also, if anyone wants a friend to talk to, encouragement, you can call me. I have helped 3 people discover their lyme. Their is not enough friendship and communication at a close level among the lyme community. That needs to change. There are so many lyme suicides that could be averted.

that dosage of doxy is lower than what most LLMD's prescribe (200 mg twice daily)

But, if you're seeing progress....that's great!
Posted 8/22/2018 1:37 PM (GMT -5)
ToddPaul,
Sounds good. Good luck. Wouldn't pulse the zith. Half life too ling...
Posted 8/22/2018 1:42 PM (GMT -5)
ToddPaul,
Agreed on the bart drugs. However, 5 days may be too long and allow replication, which would defeat the protocol. Not saying it is for sure, but make sure, if you are fighting bart. I read it's too long.
Posted 8/22/2018 1:59 PM (GMT -5)
I have two weeks off the bart drug....each cycle of 4 weeks.
Posted 8/22/2018 2:11 PM (GMT -5)
www.holtorfmed.com/are-lyme-patients-being-dosed-incorrectly/

Not sure where I found this. May have been here, so apologies if just more of the same ol'...
Posted 8/22/2018 2:58 PM (GMT -5)
So I am wondering, for lyme (not co-inf.), have all therapies been ineffective not as much because of too little dosage, but rather more because of delivery timing? Even Marshall Protocol uses small effective dosage. Effective because delivery "is made", without regard to amount. Are MIC's therefore irrellevant in lyme treatment? The delivery is made because the Benicar reduces inflammation, thus allowing very small amounts of drug to reach target. Why is MP not thus far proven to completely "cure". Could the answer be "persistors"? In spite of the many spiros it kills, there are still persistors that wake up? If it is true that there are only dormant "persistors" Vs. biofilm colonies, could stopping therapy and allowing them to "wake back up" prior to re-starting therapy be effective in treating what are now thought to be bio-film colonies? Also, if dapsone kills "persistors", the logic is it does so in any form, i.e.biofilm colony, cyst, state of suspended animation, etc.? Will small doses of abx that cover the spiro, L-Form, and CWD, especially if it includes dapsone, succeed in eradication if properly pulsed? So many questions.
Posted 8/22/2018 3:10 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...

LymeDown said...
If you have co-infection I would address them before pulsing for lyme. I have read that babs and bart are fast replicators and wont be treated while pulsing for lyme. Therefore potentially dangerous plan. Remember, co- infection doesn't necessarily mean less lethal. You don't want bart or babs to flourish.




Dr. J pretty much starts with Babesia treatment (after a few weeks of stabilization) - but it does include lyme antibiotics. And it's pulsed from the get-go.
The bart and babs replicate faster than lyme (days versus weeks I've read) - but still not quick as in hours like other bacteria.

So, it is safe to pulse babesia and bartonella.


Be careful here. Bartonella reproduces every 22 hours. I believe it must be treated daily, without pulses.

basics.com/lyme-disease-basics/co-infection-bartonella/

Girlie,
One thing I would do if I was on 4 weeks, off 2 for bart is take Beuhner's recommended herbals for bart the entire time of treatment, or at least during abx off time.

Post Edited (LymeDown) : 8/22/2018 2:26:50 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/22/2018 3:43 PM (GMT -5)
Always many schools of thoughts with these diseases, even amongst the foremost experts. I think there is more than one way to skin a cat (scratch fever, oh brother I'm terrible)!

I think Dr SP in CT uses pulse protocols even for bartonella (but I'm not 100%, I'd like to check). He is very well-versed with bartonella. But you have to weight potential benefit/risk. Probably some benefits to continuous abx pressure on bartonella, at the same time I think the bugs must have some mechanisms to hide and chill out and wait till the storm passes when they sense pressure from antimicrobials and other stressors. Whereas if you pulse you have a chance to keep catching them unawares. Even with bart drugs I've noticed that pulsing seems more effective for me, I always get a good herx on reintroduction of a med I haven't taken in days.

Even if bartonella reproduces every 22hrs, if your abx is amplified in power by surprising them you might still be able to knock out enough that you are consistently denting the pathogenic load regardless of replication cycle. Whereas if they are in hibernation from continuous exposure you might not be knocking a significant amount out.

Anyways, I really like this question. I don't know the answer.
Posted 8/22/2018 3:47 PM (GMT -5)
FYI, Dr SP doesn't pulse certain drugs like Rifabutin or Rifampin due to resistance.
Posted 8/22/2018 3:48 PM (GMT -5)
Thank you sierraDon! that's one of the questions I had, but figured the rifampin/butin couldn't be pulsed. how about other bart drugs? are you seeing Dr SP? I imagine quinolones can't be pulsed either.
Posted 8/22/2018 3:55 PM (GMT -5)
yeah i dont know about the other drugs, but i know rifabutin/rifampin he doesn't. I have been on rifabutin. i suspect mepron too isn't pulsed there. yep, switched over.
Posted 8/22/2018 3:57 PM (GMT -5)
Nice, I really like Dr SP. Hope you see great improvement with him.
Posted 8/22/2018 4:01 PM (GMT -5)
Thank you sebreg - its actually with his NP. I am hopeful, so far so good...I feel it was the right decision for me.
Posted 8/22/2018 4:04 PM (GMT -5)
That's super, I've heard he has a good team so no matter what you are in good hands. And they follow his treatment guidance and philosophy which is what counts.
Posted 8/22/2018 4:19 PM (GMT -5)

LymeDown said...

Girlie said...

LymeDown said...
If you have co-infection I would address them before pulsing for lyme. I have read that babs and bart are fast replicators and wont be treated while pulsing for lyme. Therefore potentially dangerous plan. Remember, co- infection doesn't necessarily mean less lethal. You don't want bart or babs to flourish.




Dr. J pretty much starts with Babesia treatment (after a few weeks of stabilization) - but it does include lyme antibiotics. And it's pulsed from the get-go.
The bart and babs replicate faster than lyme (days versus weeks I've read) - but still not quick as in hours like other bacteria.

So, it is safe to pulse babesia and bartonella.


Be careful here. Bartonella reproduces every 22 hours. I believe it must be treated daily, without pulses.

basics.com/lyme-disease-basics/co-infection-bartonella/

Girlie,
One thing I would do if I was on 4 weeks, off 2 for bart is take Beuhner's recommended herbals for bart the entire time of treatment, or at least during abx off time.

I’m on 2 weeks - off 2 weeks of Rifabutin

I’m on a heavy protocol so at this point I’m not going to add Buhner bart - I am taking Cryptolepis tho.
I’m being treated by Dr J so I’m trusting what he prescribes - he’s got many years of treating these infections under his belt. And he has good success.

I am actually seeing a change now after 5 1/2 months following his protocols

Still to early to know for sure tho
Posted 8/22/2018 4:19 PM (GMT -5)
Does SP use Dapsone frequently?
Posted 8/22/2018 6:10 PM (GMT -5)
ToddPaul, I am not sure if they use Dapsone there, maybe some others that have been there longer can chime in.
Posted 8/22/2018 7:57 PM (GMT -5)
LLMD SP seems to be a great Doc...from what I've read/seen.
Posted 8/22/2018 10:59 PM (GMT -5)
Yes I just met someone who used him and is in remission. She said she took abx for 10 years on and off. He's also got great reviews online but he's not taking on new patients so you have to see one of his P.A.s
Posted 8/22/2018 11:00 PM (GMT -5)

LymeDown said...
www.holtorfmed.com/are-lyme-patients-being-dosed-incorrectly/

Not sure where I found this. May have been here, so apologies if just more of the same ol'...

Dr J has been prescribing the pulsed approach for many years - he talks about when there are breaks - days off the abx - it allows the immune system to start working - because the abx aren’t doing the job.
Posted 8/22/2018 11:04 PM (GMT -5)

ToddPaul said...
Yes I just met someone who used him and is in remission. She said she took abx for 10 years on and off. He's also got great reviews online but he's not taking on new patients so you have to see one of his P.A.s

Wow - 10 years - was she with other llmd’s prior to SP?

I’ve seen some of his videos with Dana P and they were very informative.

Dr J also has PA’s and NP’s to treat patients - but they are trained by him and follow his protocols.
This way it allows him to take more patients at the clinic.
Posted 8/22/2018 11:12 PM (GMT -5)
Not sure if it she just saw him or others too. I saw the last video on their FB site. Interesting how he uses tetracycline instead of Doxy because it's easier on the stomach and feels it's just as effective or even more.
Posted 8/22/2018 11:40 PM (GMT -5)

ToddPaul said...
Not sure if it she just saw him or others too. I saw the last video on their FB site. Interesting how he uses tetracycline instead of Doxy because it's easier on the stomach and feels it's just as effective or even more.

The LLMD's have their 'favorites'. Dr. J doesn't usually prescribe doxy or tetra - ...he likes minocycline.
Posted 8/23/2018 3:52 AM (GMT -5)

LymeDown said...
Even Marshall Protocol uses small effective dosage. Effective because delivery "is made", without regard to amount. Are MIC's therefore irrellevant in lyme treatment?

Marshall Protocol uses Olmesartan first(as an macrophage activator) and insists on having low levels of anti-inflammatory hormone d25 second. As I see it, all antibiotics are out of the protocol, except for minocycline which is used as anti inflammatory.

New data regarding d25 levels:

Regulation of cytokine responses by seasonality of vitamin D status in healthy individuals
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074219/
Elevated vitamin D3 level in vivo is associated with down-regulation of cytokine response through diminished surface expression of pattern recognition receptors(TLR2/TLR4).

Why TLRs are so important? Well...

TLR2 and TLR4 mediated host immune responses in major infectious diseases: a review
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S141386701500224X

Recognition of the array of pathogens though TLRs:

TLR4: Gram-negative bacteria, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, RSV, MMTV, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida albicans, Cryptococcus neoformans, Aspergillus fumigatus, Trypanosoma cruzi, Plasmodium falciprum, Toxoplasma gondii, Leishmania major, Entamoeba histolytica, Filarial nematode, Acanthocheilonema Viteae, Taenia crassiceps

TLR2: Gram-positive bacteria, Streptococcus B, Staphylococcus aureus, Trepanema maltophilum, Wolbachia, Borrelia burgdorferi, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Measles, Herpes, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Candida albicans, Trypanosoma cruzi, Plasmodium falciprum, Toxoplasma gondii, Leishmania donovani, Leishmania major, Leishmana sp., Leishmania mexicana, Entamoeba histolytica, Ascaris lumbricoides, Schistosoma mansoni, Schistosoma japonicum, Taenia solium

TLR9 is also suppressed by D3 -> D25
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20435648

and TLR9 is used to recognize bb:

Recognition of Borrelia burgdorferi, the Lyme disease spirochete, by TLR7 and TLR9 induces a type I IFN response by human immune cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19794067

....

As for antibiotics - they work differently on MP than other protocols. Originally minocycline azithromycin clindamycin and Bactrim were used - all four active against intracellular white blood cell pathogens and in small doses to not interfere with immune system functioning much.

Post Edited (Dmitry) : 8/23/2018 5:43:15 AM (GMT-6)

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