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Is It Even Possible to Have this Many Co-infections?

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Posted 9/18/2018 12:38 PM (GMT -5)
Was taking another look at recent arminlabs test results.

Is it possible to have so many co-infections with Lyme Disease or can testing be off? I've also had positives on a couple of these with Igenex.

Borrelia Burgdorferi - highly positive IgG

Babesia microti - highly positive IgG

Bartonella henslae - high IgG

Ehrlichia chaffeensis - highly positive IgG

Rickettsia akari (Rocky Mountain spotted fever) - highly positive IgG

Coxsackie Virus - highly positive IgG

Epstein-barr Virus - positive IgG

Human Parvovirus - mild positive IgG

Mycoplasma Pneumonia - highly positive IgG

Any chance there are false positives on some of these? Some never showed on any other tests.

If possible, then that was one bad tick
nono
Posted 9/18/2018 12:46 PM (GMT -5)
Well, it could be more than one tick...right?


I never saw 'my' tick...who knows if I had a few prior to the one that did me in.


I doubt if there are false positives.
But, I see some are IgG. I know with lyme WB the IgG means older infection, but CAN also mean active infection...but not necessarily...could be in remission.
So, perhaps some of your IgG's are past..and not active? I wouldn't call them 'false' positives...but could be not active infections.


Also, many of us don't get all those tests done...and some of those are 'taken care of' with lyme/bart/babs treatment.

I've not tested for all those...
Posted 9/18/2018 12:55 PM (GMT -5)
cross-reactivity is possible for some. which would show up as a false positive.

i am not sure if there is a list of all infections and which ones are cross-reactive. maybe someone else knows.

i know for various strains of bartonella they are cross reactive, and sometimes things like ebv is cross reactive with other things.
Posted 9/18/2018 12:58 PM (GMT -5)
the viruses are either from past infections (which most all of us have), or have been re-activated due to low immune system.
Posted 9/18/2018 1:34 PM (GMT -5)

sierraDon said...
cross-reactivity is possible for some. which would show up as a false positive.

i am not sure if there is a list of all infections and which ones are cross-reactive. maybe someone else knows.

i know for various strains of bartonella they are cross reactive, and sometimes things like ebv is cross reactive with other things.

I didn’t know the infections cross-react??

Yes different strains of same infection possibly ie Bartonella strains ?
but not infections cross reacting with others? (Borrelia with Babs for example)
Posted 9/18/2018 1:35 PM (GMT -5)
yes
Posted 9/18/2018 1:47 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...

sierraDon said...
cross-reactivity is possible for some. which would show up as a false positive.

i am not sure if there is a list of all infections and which ones are cross-reactive. maybe someone else knows.

i know for various strains of bartonella they are cross reactive, and sometimes things like ebv is cross reactive with other things.

I didn’t know the infections cross-react??

Yes different strains of same infection possibly ie Bartonella strains ?
but not infections cross reacting with others? (Borrelia with Babs for example)

yeah i am not sure if there is a list of all the cross-reactivity possibities. but they do exist, EBV has a lot of cross-reactivity possibilities for example like borrellia, hpylori

see article here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC153420/

there is a lot of articles on crossreactivity.
Posted 9/18/2018 2:58 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks for different information. What has always thrown me is that IgG means past infection, but could also indicate current. Since they were all IgG positive and none IgM, it makes sense that IgG could also mean current because, honestly, I've never had as many symptoms at once as I do now.

The cross reactivity makes sense and the link helped there.

The naturopath I go to, and she has a doctor that works with her as well, both have said IgG means the tests are positive for active. I've been told that before, and also that it means the infection or virus is gone.

Just thrown on how to treat it all, even with their help. Some just say go with Buhner's protocol to get all. The only antibiotic I am on is Bicillin IM. All others are herbs.

Since all are IgG postive, but none IgM, have to believe IgG could also mean active. Makae sense?
Posted 9/18/2018 3:01 PM (GMT -5)

sierraDon said...

Girlie said...

sierraDon said...
cross-reactivity is possible for some. which would show up as a false positive.

i am not sure if there is a list of all infections and which ones are cross-reactive. maybe someone else knows.

i know for various strains of bartonella they are cross reactive, and sometimes things like ebv is cross reactive with other things.

I didn’t know the infections cross-react??

Yes different strains of same infection possibly ie Bartonella strains ?
but not infections cross reacting with others? (Borrelia with Babs for example)

yeah i am not sure if there is a list of all the cross-reactivity possibities. but they do exist, EBV has a lot of cross-reactivity possibilities for example like borrellia, hpylori

see article here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC153420/

there is a lot of articles on crossreactivity.

I quickly looked at that article - It's different strains of Borrelia, right?

Not Borrelia cross-reacting with Bart or Babs...or...

She's positive for several different infections: Borrelia, Bartonella, Babesia, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Mycoplasma Pneumoniae, - not ever heard of those cross-reacting with each other.
Posted 9/18/2018 3:11 PM (GMT -5)
that is just one article...there are many articles to pick through. LD cross reacts with EBV, syphilis, hyplori to name a few. I know that bartonella cross reacts with hensalae and quintana and i am sure others. EBV probably cross reacts with other viruses. ehrlichia cross reacts with anaplasma and others (maybe RMSF?). the list goes on.

would be nice if there is a was spreadsheet of all the cross reactivity associations.
Posted 9/18/2018 3:21 PM (GMT -5)

sierraDon said...
that is just one article...there are many articles to pick through. LD cross reacts with EBV, syphilis, hyplori to name a few.

would be nice if there is a was spreadsheet of all the cross reactivity associations.

Not the lyme specific bands. Syphilis is band 41 and EBV can be band 31 I believe. But no cross-reactivity with the lyme specific bands.

Henselae and quintana are both Bartonella - just different strains.
Posted 9/18/2018 3:34 PM (GMT -5)
I don t feel the science is clear on any of this, especially with EBV cross reactivity, lyme and erhichlia/anaplasma/RMSF. bartonella and babesia i think are pretty safe within their own, but the others not sure about.

a table of all these citing reference articles would be great.
Posted 9/18/2018 4:17 PM (GMT -5)

sierraDon said...
I don t feel the science is clear on any of this, especially with EBV cross reactivity, lyme and erhichlia/anaplasma/RMSF. bartonella and babesia i think are pretty safe within their own, but the others not sure about.

a table of all these citing reference articles would be great.

So you're just talking about lyme/ehrlicia/anaplasma/RMSF cross-reacting?

I don't know about ehrlicia/anaplasmosis....with each other...but have not seen anything citing lyme cross-reacting with those two.


Have you seen a table showing cross-reactivity amongst those...(even without citing reference articles)?
Posted 9/18/2018 5:07 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Was taking another look at recent arminlabs test results.

Is it possible to have so many co-infections with Lyme Disease or can testing be off? I've also had positives on a couple of these with Igenex.

Borrelia Burgdorferi - highly positive IgG

Babesia microti - highly positive IgG

Bartonella henslae - high IgG

Ehrlichia chaffeensis - highly positive IgG

Rickettsia akari (Rocky Mountain spotted fever) - highly positive IgG

Coxsackie Virus - highly positive IgG

Epstein-barr Virus - positive IgG

Human Parvovirus - mild positive IgG

Mycoplasma Pneumonia - highly positive IgG

Any chance there are false positives on some of these? Some never showed on any other tests.

If possible, then that was one bad tick
nono

Minus the parvovirus and RMSF, I tested positive for all of these as well. I agree that many of these infections were lying dormant until borellia got involved.
Posted 9/18/2018 5:39 PM (GMT -5)
Can talk with my naturopath and doctor abut this, but how do you treat so many different possibilities? Trying to avoid any more anitbiotics, other than the Bicillin IM. Just wondering how those with this experience here have done so.

I've learned more on this site than anywhere, including doctors.
Posted 9/18/2018 5:51 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Can talk with my naturopath and doctor abut this, but how do you treat so many different possibilities? Trying to avoid any more anitbiotics, other than the Bicillin IM. Just wondering how those with this experience here have done so.

I've learned more on this site than anywhere, including doctors.

With pharmaceuticals - antibiotics/antimalarials for .....lyme, bart and babesia treatment generally takes care of Ehrlichia, and mycoplasma pneumonia.
Some LLMD's treat all three B's since testing isn't reliable. (many false negatives).
I'm not sure about Rocky Mountain Fever.


The viruses - may not need treatment if they're dormant.

With herbs...there also is some overlap. For instance: Japanese knotweed herb treats both lyme and bart.
Sida Acuta is in both the bart and babesia treatment.
Houttuynia is in the mycoplasma and Bartonella protocol.

etc.
Posted 9/18/2018 6:39 PM (GMT -5)
Girlie - have you had any luck with any of the treatments you have tried? Have you felt better for any length of time?

Starting in late 2014, I actually felt about 85% for about 18 months, until I had a bicusped valve replaced in heart. Since that time, have only had a month or two of "pretty good." Just wondering how you have fared.
Posted 9/18/2018 8:06 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Girlie - have you had any luck with any of the treatments you have tried? Have you felt better for any length of time?

Starting in late 2014, I actually felt about 85% for about 18 months, until I had a bicusped valve replaced in heart. Since that time, have only had a month or two of "pretty good." Just wondering how you have fared.

i'm about 80%. Have had close to 40 symptoms and have about 8 - 10 left.
But, unfortunately a couple of them are my worst symptoms and so I still don't feel 'well'.

What I'm left with and % improved:

- Pressure in my head: 85-90%
- Shivers: improvement in the mornings...but not later in the day
- Nerve pain - upper back - left side, left arm and hand
- Foot pain just in the a.m. getting out of bed: 80%
- memory/cognitive abilities: 80%
- POTS: 50-75% (hard to tell because I'm not checking my heart rate all day long)
- Sweating: 50-75% (no more waking up in the night sweating....and almost non-existent in the morning, but I still do sweat randomly in the day/evening sometimes.

There's a few more I can't think of now without checking my list.



Some of the symptoms that are completely resolved (or 98% ):

- muscle twitching
- tailbone pain
- mild bels palsy (numbness, buzzing and pain left side of face)
- sensation of lump in my throat
- weight loss
- knee pain
- shoulder joint pain
- finger joint pain
- waking during the night in a panic, sweating, gasping for air
- resolution of swollen clavicle lymph node
- weakness
- urinary urgency
- tremors
- depression
- anxiety
- pulsatile tinnitus
- undigested food in my p--p
- frozen shoulder
- baker's cysts
- collagen lost (not losing anymore...but also not getting back what was lost)

Can't think of the rest right now.....
Posted 9/19/2018 11:01 AM (GMT -5)
Girlie - looks like you've come a long way. Glad to see that.

As mentioned, I was 85% overall until heart surgery in June, 2016. Think that shot immune system and opened the door for much more to deal with. What seemed to work best for you, or was it the combined effort of all?

I've never been worse than right now with symptoms. Having all the kidney tests done is stressful, which adds to it. Your kidney tests come back normal after another check?

The problem I'm having is the kidney symptoms and Lyme overlap, so it throws me off on what might be doing what. Get results from latest 24 hour urine test tomorrow. Just want to get that over and figure out if treatment is causing problems or kidneys, which I pray it's not.

The dizziness and anxiety/depression are the worst symptoms. If tomorrow's test shows no protein in urine (had it one time in June but ate a lot of protein before test). Last two have been okay.

Waiting is the toughest part. From your posts, it seems you are the same way, or am I wrong.

Again, so glad you are doing that much better.
Posted 9/19/2018 1:09 PM (GMT -5)
I am positive for most of those too - except babs & ehrlichia. Dr. H office told me my rmsf positive igg could be positive bc of lyme (false pos). I also had positive brucella (igm) which they said could also be false due to another intracellular bacteria (like bart). I was igg positive for bart too. With all these cross reactions and false positives how do we know what is accurate!
Posted 9/19/2018 1:59 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Girlie - looks like you've come a long way. Glad to see that.

As mentioned, I was 85% overall until heart surgery in June, 2016. Think that shot immune system and opened the door for much more to deal with. What seemed to work best for you, or was it the combined effort of all?

I've never been worse than right now with symptoms. Having all the kidney tests done is stressful, which adds to it. Your kidney tests come back normal after another check?

The problem I'm having is the kidney symptoms and Lyme overlap, so it throws me off on what might be doing what. Get results from latest 24 hour urine test tomorrow. Just want to get that over and figure out if treatment is causing problems or kidneys, which I pray it's not.

The dizziness and anxiety/depression are the worst symptoms. If tomorrow's test shows no protein in urine (had it one time in June but ate a lot of protein before test). Last two have been okay.

Waiting is the toughest part. From your posts, it seems you are the same way, or am I wrong.

Again, so glad you are doing that much better.

I get all worked up when there's a lab test out of range...except for my lower WBC count - I'm used to that now. I start googling and work myself up into a dither.

I never had the protein in urine checked when my gfr and creatinine were out of range.
But I remember a few years ago seeing a couple urine analysis' that showed protein and rbc.
Nothing was followed up tho.
Of course now I'm concerned. Lol

My last gfr and creatinine were in range.

I do my monthly tests next week, so keeping my fingers crossed.

On paper it looks like I'm doing well, but on most days I don't feel much better because of a couple symptoms being my worst ones...are still with me.
Posted 9/19/2018 2:03 PM (GMT -5)
Bart treatment eliminated most of my resolved symptoms.

Rfampin and minocycline.

Babs treatment that followed Bart treatment helped with a couple more.

I'm hoping that my treatment now of Bart/persisters will eliminate the rest.


Hope you have good results tomorrow, running wild!!
Posted 9/19/2018 3:06 PM (GMT -5)
I don't know anything about arminlabs but your results make me skeptical of the laboratory. Huge shifts in the microbiome can occur with infectious diseases, but to test positive for so many primary pathogens? That indicates a lot of exposure and I'm not sure that these all have the same geographic spread. Especially if your other labs are not confirming all of them. Honestly, I'm kind of skeptical of most Lyme specialty labs as it is. I would retest this through something like labcorp and see which ones match. In the end we all have to treat based on what works for us. I would just hate to see someone think they have a million things and divert their focus from the one or two things that are actually likely and relevant to their illness
Posted 9/19/2018 3:30 PM (GMT -5)
Psilo - Armin labs is a good lab. Some LLMD's in the U.S. are using it.
(and it's THE lab in Europe)


Also, in Canada, there are LLND's that use it.


We don't usually see all that coming back positive...I wouldn't call them false positives.

Thing is if treating the three B's (which many LLMD's do) some (if not all) of the other bacterial infections will be covered.

running wild has a LLND to discuss the results with.
Posted 9/19/2018 5:43 PM (GMT -5)
I'm not going to lie, I'm skeptical of a lot of things LLMD's are doing. I don't know anything about Armin's, but the fact that LLMD's are using it does not quell my concerns about whether it is a legitimate laboratory or whether it is taking advantage of Lyme patients. The fact that OP said other labs did not always validate those results is what concerns me. That means one of the labs is inaccurate and I am leaning towards the one that shows an unrealistic number of positive results.
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