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Is It Even Possible to Have this Many Co-infections?

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Posted 9/19/2018 7:03 PM (GMT -5)
Girlie - hope the symptoms that continue to bother you grow less and less. But feeling so much improvement in other areas has to give you hope.

The kidney issue is so confusing. I see a lot of people in past have indicated low gfr and high creatinine. I'll find out tomorrow how the 24 hour urine goes. Praying there is not protein or other problems so I can get it off my mind.

As far as the labs for Lyme and co-infections go, it makes sense there could be cross reaction. And treating the Bs can't be wrong. That's why I want to see urine results. Not sure how hard to treat until then. I've had the numbers get better when I felt better. But the protein in urine that one time was a first. It came, however, after eating a lot of protein hhours before test.

I now know to fast each time.
Posted 9/19/2018 7:41 PM (GMT -5)
Cross reactivity can occur but it is unlikely to be that extensive. Given that these are common pathogens it would be a huge limitation to these tests and I imagine it would be recognized
Posted 9/19/2018 7:51 PM (GMT -5)

Psilociraptor said...
I'm not going to lie, I'm skeptical of a lot of things LLMD's are doing. I don't know anything about Armin's, but the fact that LLMD's are using it does not quell my concerns about whether it is a legitimate laboratory or whether it is taking advantage of Lyme patients. The fact that OP said other labs did not always validate those results is what concerns me. That means one of the labs is inaccurate and I am leaning towards the one that shows an unrealistic number of positive results.

Some of the labs don’t include all the bands - lowering your chance for a positive result.

And then there’s the lab here in Canada that won’t even do the WB if you don’t test positive on the Elisa or IFA.

FYI - Dr Martz wouldn’t have successfully treated his ALS if he had stopped at the first lab he tested with.

Edit: dr Martz tested negative three times at the Mayo Clinic. Then he sent his blood to a “specialty lab” and tested positive.


* Lyme should be a clinical diagnosis with testing to back it up.
Posted 9/20/2018 5:29 AM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...

Psilociraptor said...
I'm not going to lie, I'm skeptical of a lot of things LLMD's are doing. I don't know anything about Armin's, but the fact that LLMD's are using it does not quell my concerns about whether it is a legitimate laboratory or whether it is taking advantage of Lyme patients. The fact that OP said other labs did not always validate those results is what concerns me. That means one of the labs is inaccurate and I am leaning towards the one that shows an unrealistic number of positive results.

Some of the labs don’t include all the bands - lowering your chance for a positive result.

And then there’s the lab here in Canada that won’t even do the WB if you don’t test positive on the Elisa or IFA.

FYI - Dr Martz wouldn’t have successfully treated his ALS if he had stopped at the first lab he tested with.

Edit: dr Martz tested negative three times at the Mayo Clinic. Then he sent his blood to a “specialty lab” and tested positive.


* Lyme should be a clinical diagnosis with testing to back it up.

I don't think they use western blots for all these coinfections. Just Lyme right? With the Elisa and IFA it's just a "yes" or "no" kind of deal. As for the ALS, I don't know anything about that story. A lot of diseases are shown to be caused by microorganisms regardless of Lyme and co. So whether he truly identified and treated the right pathogen, or just got better because abx killed whatever he had I don't know. I don't have any proof of Lyme from labcorp or igenex but I'm getting better on a lot of the same treatments.

I'm not saying there's no purpose to specialty labs, we just have to be very careful how much trust we put in them. It doesn't change the treatment all that much as inflammatory diseases should be treated with... dun dun dun... antibiotics. It's just a question of how caught up the patient gets in having to treat all these very specific diseases when we cant be certain the protocols for these labs are even valid. I would still be interested in testing one like Aperiomics since they're picking pathogens out of a pot of 37,000. But when you're going to a Lyme specialty lab it's almost like you're setting yourself up to validate your own beliefs. A lot of LLMD's for example will diagnose you with Lyme even if the Igenex comes back negative. But if the test comes back positive it only reinforces the belief. And if the test is discordant with other tests what do we realistically make of that? You know what I'm saying? Like, in the end don't we just treat based off what works for us and what doesn't anyways? So why give credence to unvalidated unless they generate truly novel and convincing information? I mean, maybe some of these labs are really good... but like... how do you know? After being sick with this stuff for years I'm just as tired with getting the run around from the alternative community as I am from the conventional one. One's got a lack of rigor and the others got a lack of imagination.

Sorry for spewing this. Couldn't sleep last night so I'm up early and chugging coffee and this is what happens to me when I'm stimmed up and got nothing to do turn
Posted 9/20/2018 12:16 PM (GMT -5)
Yes the WB is for Lyme only.

And yes the IFA and Elisa are yes or no. They don’t proceed with the WB if it’s a “no” here in Canada. It's a screening tool. (maybe the same in the U.S.)
It’s known that the Elisa and IFA are not very sensitive and miss a large number of cases.

If I hadn’t had the opportunity to test with Igenex I’d still be in very rough shape because the “specialists” I saw here had no clue what was wrong other than sleep apnea, and frozen shoulder.
This was over a 14 month span. I was offered a cortisone shot for my shoulder...


I know several people who have got their health back with long term treatments - who would not have if they had not tested with Igenex or Armin Labs.

People who test with these labs have generally been sent to specialists and tested for other diseases and end up with either a false diagnosis (CFS, Fibromyalgis etc) or none as was my experience.

(Sleep apnea and frozen shoulder didn’t explain the bulk of my symptoms)

Re: Dr Martz - He wasn’t offered abx until he got the lyme positive test - so no abx to treat his “ALS” diagnosis. He would most likely have died by now. (2-5 years)



So you’re saying without a positive Lyme test - a non Lyme Dr is going to treat people with abx to treat whatever pathogen they have? Seriously? Or are you saying a lyme dr?
But you think the Lyme dr shouldn’t use the labs who specialize in tickborne disease testing to back up the clinical diagnosis?

BTW Igenex has done the Validation Studies
Posted 9/20/2018 2:08 PM (GMT -5)
Got 24-hour urine test back, which has me in a panic. Not good numbers.

Urine creatinine is low(769) with 1000-2000 in normal range.
Creatinine clearance is real low (38) with 97-137 being normal range,

Serum creatinine is 1.42 (1.27 being high)


Protein total lesser than 1.0 (not sure what that means).
Protein calculated in 24-hour urine - less than 212. Marked high. Range is 30-150.

Totally lost now on how this is happening or if I simply have kidney disease. Can't find where toxins can cause this or medicines. Lost.
Posted 9/20/2018 2:30 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Got 24-hour urine test back, which has me in a panic. Not good numbers.

Urine creatinine is low(769) with 1000-2000 in normal range.
Creatinine clearance is real low (38) with 97-137 being normal range,

Serum creatinine is 1.42 (1.27 being high)


Protein total lesser than 1.0 (not sure what that means).
Protein calculated in 24-hour urine - less than 212. Marked high. Range is 30-150.

Totally lost now on how this is happening or if I simply have kidney disease. Can't find where toxins can cause this or medicines. Lost.

Oh a 24 hour test....don't you love those? I did that for a cortisol test once.

Maybe you should go off all treatments for now? And see if that brings your kidney function tests back to normal.

There are medications that can do that to kidney function...one being antibiotics:



/www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/medicine-hurt-kidneys#1

Are you still on the intramuscular abx?
Posted 9/20/2018 2:39 PM (GMT -5)
Can't find where Bicillin (penicillin) will. Can natural herbs that are anit-bacterials? Or cryptoleptis.?

Also, can not detoxing enough do it? I've used all these before and never had this problem. Just not sure if kidneys are getting shot from high blood pressure or if it's part of Lyme. Actually expected good news today and was caught off guard.

Any experience/ideas would be greatly appreciated. The creatinine clearance is very low.
Posted 9/20/2018 3:08 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Can't find where Bicillin (penicillin) will. Can natural herbs that are anit-bacterials? Or cryptoleptis.?

Also, can not detoxing enough do it? I've used all these before and never had this problem. Just not sure if kidneys are getting shot from high blood pressure or if it's part of Lyme. Actually expected good news today and was caught off guard.

Any experience/ideas would be greatly appreciated. The creatinine clearance is very low.

/www.medicinenet.com/penicillin_g_benzathine-injection/article.htm#what_is_penicillin_g_benzathine-injection,_and_how_does_it_work_(mechanism_of_action)?

“Kidney problems”
Posted 9/20/2018 3:31 PM (GMT -5)
Hey Girle - thanks for sending. Can you be on a medicine for a long time before it causes problems? As in your experience or anyone else you have heard of?

So sorry to make this about "me," but in a panic. As mentioned before, not good with any of this, mentally. Thank you again.
Posted 9/20/2018 3:44 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Hey Girle - thanks for sending. Can you be on a medicine for a long time before it causes problems? As in your experience or anyone else you have heard of?

So sorry to make this about "me," but in a panic. As mentioned before, not good with any of this, mentally. Thank you again.

I would think that length of time matters.

I don’t have any proof - but I would think that if a med is hard on liver and/or kidneys that the longer you’re on them the chance of them being affected ie damage is greater.

But withdrawing the meds will allow them to normalize again... but I guess in extreme circumstances they may not “bounce” back.

I met a nurse a few weeks ago who said an antibiotic she was on caused kidney function to drop - I think her gfr was 25.
She stopped the antibiotic and her gfr slowly increased - took a couple years though but hadn’t had a problem since.
Posted 9/20/2018 4:05 PM (GMT -5)
Hoping that is case. Also will really start detoxing more for Lyme and detoxing kidneys.

Know how much you are appreciated.
Posted 9/20/2018 4:11 PM (GMT -5)

running wild said...
Hoping that is case. Also will really start detoxing more for Lyme and detoxing kidneys.

Know how much you are appreciated.

Oh one more thing - are you drinking enough water?

The day I tested kidney function out of range I had fasted including no water. My dr (non Lyme) told me it could affect them.
Next time I tested I was welll hydrated and they had come back into range.

I’m testing again next week - if they’re high again then I’m blaming on the persister protocol I’m on (dapsone/daraprim/Rifabutin)
Posted 9/20/2018 6:46 PM (GMT -5)
Thought I did but peed so much the night before, I don’t lnow. Seems when I get the constant peeing, tests are off. But the low creatinine clearance has been a recent thing and is getting worse. Just not sure where to go for help on it.

Mainstream doctors won’t even considered set Lyme and naturopaths don’t seem to relate much to Lyme or co infections causing kidney problems. Maybe just high blood pressure brought on by Lyne has caused it. If so, don’t know if f that can ever come back.

Not many people have had this problem, from shst I have read.
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