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Bartonella abx -- what does this mean?

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Posted 4/30/2019 10:12 AM (GMT -5)
https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/8/2/50?fbclid=iwar0slnvfnketaxgthwtrlz7qgzjidja3aldcellucl6dvmyacgspofbgoh0

Can someone explain this in simpler English?

"While the currently used drugs for treating bartonellosis, including rifampin, erythromycin, azithromycin, doxycycline, and ciprofloxacin, had very low minimal inhibitory concentration (MIC) against growing B. henselae, they had relatively poor activity against stationary phase B. henselae, except aminoglycosides."
Posted 4/30/2019 10:33 AM (GMT -5)
this study shows the only abx to have a effect on stationary bart is the drugs ending in -mycin . at one time i heard that low -mid dose gentimycin injections were effective. infuserve america has tobrimycin i think. i couldnt find a doc willing to script the gent. i guess it needs be monitored for deafness and kidney function. this is why i went with rife and zhang while on bvt and i think bart is still there hiding....
Posted 4/30/2019 11:07 AM (GMT -5)

Dahlias said...
had relatively poor activity against stationary phase B. henselae

Meaning the dormant, persistent bacteria were not killed by the antibiotics.
Posted 4/30/2019 12:03 PM (GMT -5)
So persisters? Are they hiding in cysts/biofilms?

Thank you!
Posted 4/30/2019 12:07 PM (GMT -5)
Is Rifampin a mycin?
Posted 4/30/2019 12:24 PM (GMT -5)

HeartsinPain said...
Is Rifampin a mycin?

Are you talking about biaxin...or azithromycin...... (macrolides) ......or Clindamycin?
Posted 4/30/2019 12:35 PM (GMT -5)
I’m actually not sure! I guess I’m just asking if according to that article if Rifampin is good for Bart?
Posted 4/30/2019 1:41 PM (GMT -5)

HeartsinPain said...
I’m actually not sure! I guess I’m just asking if according to that article if Rifampin is good for Bart?

according to that article, it is not.

Li et al said...
41 drugs were confirmed by microscopy to have higher activity than the current frontline antibiotic erythromycin. The identified top drug candidates include pyrvinium pamoate, daptomycin, methylene blue, azole drugs (clotrimazole, miconazole, sulconazole, econazole, oxiconazole, butoconazole, bifonazole), aminoglycosides (gentamicin and streptomycin, amikacin, kanamycin), amifostine (Ethyol), antiviral Lopinavir/ritonavir, colistin, nitroxoline, nitrofurantoin, verteporfin, pentamidine, berberine, aprepitant, olsalazine, clinafloxacin, and clofoctol. Pyrvinium pamoate, daptomycin, methylene blue, clotrimazole, and gentamicin and streptomycin at their respective maximum drug concentration in serum (Cmax) had the capacity to completely eradicate stationary phase B. henselae after 3-day drug exposure in subculture studies.

Posted 4/30/2019 1:53 PM (GMT -5)
Shoot sad. Thank you though
Posted 4/30/2019 2:05 PM (GMT -5)
This article is interesting, i wonder if the reason why people do well on mino, azith, rifabutin or rifampin, is due to it working primarily against lyme, such that your immune defenses start to work on bartonella naturally.

i wonder if fluconazole or rifabutin was included in that study too
Posted 4/30/2019 2:11 PM (GMT -5)
Rifampin does work against bartonella....it got rid of a LOT of my bart symptoms....

I'm now on Rifabutin...and it's also working on the bart....fingers crossed that it eliminates that last few.

i had stalled out on Rifampin...maybe because it wasn't quite strong enough (like Rifabutin) ..OR it was because I still had biofilms and babesia that has now been properly treated.

I know several people who's bart was effectively treated with Rifampin PLUS one other antibiotic.
Posted 4/30/2019 2:19 PM (GMT -5)
ok thanks Girlie! I’m on Rifampin, Mino and Flagyl right now. I hope the Rifabutin kicks your remaining symptoms!
Posted 4/30/2019 2:36 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
Rifampin does work against bartonella....it got rid of a LOT of my bart symptoms....

Yes, but it didn't kill the persisters.

I took rifampin for 6 months. The bartonella came back afterwards.
Posted 4/30/2019 2:47 PM (GMT -5)
Quin how long were you infected? I was only three months in before I started treating so I hope I caught it early enough to treat.
Posted 4/30/2019 2:53 PM (GMT -5)

sierraDon said...
This article is interesting, i wonder if the reason why people do well on mino, azith, rifabutin or rifampin, is due to it working primarily against lyme, such that your immune defenses start to work on bartonella naturally.

Didn't work for me. Treating lyme, but not bartonella just made me more sick.

What did seem to work was taking valproate to "re-activate" the bartonella, and then killing it with minocycline.

sierraDon said...
i wonder if fluconazole or rifabutin was included in that study too

Fluconazole was included. It didn't work.
Posted 4/30/2019 2:58 PM (GMT -5)

HeartsinPain said...
Quin how long were you infected? I was only three months in before I started treating so I hope I caught it early enough to treat.


I have no idea. I'd had tick bites and exposure to cats years earlier. It took a long time before I got sick.
Posted 4/30/2019 3:06 PM (GMT -5)
yeah, no mention if rifabutin was in the drug library either. the in vitro results dont always translate to in vivo. in the discussion at the end, it states that biofilm could attribute to difference in results between studies and clinical experience. maybe thats why biofilm treatment is needed in combo. non of those top 41 drugs are really known to treat biofilm. rifabutin is claimed to have some effect on lyme persisters and biofilm.
Posted 5/14/2019 2:36 PM (GMT -5)
Hi guys my doctor just switched me back to AZITHROMYCIN from Rifampin. I was o my one Rifampin for a month but she wanted me to cone off t since I was getting more migraines. I was on Azithromycin for six months and will go back on it for two more months. Is AZITHROMYCIN considered good for Bart? After two more months with my LLMD ( that’s honestly all I can afford, I’ve spend my entire savings.) I’ll do six full months of the full Cowden protocol. She’s this seem like a good plan? I’m about 80% better then I was when I started treating.
Posted 5/14/2019 3:23 PM (GMT -5)

Quin said...

Girlie said...
Rifampin does work against bartonella....it got rid of a LOT of my bart symptoms....

Yes, but it didn't kill the persisters.

I took rifampin for 6 months. The bartonella came back afterwards.

/////////////////////////////////////////////

I took Rifabutin with Persister meds more recently - but the Rifampin (no Persister meds) resolved a good majority of my symptoms - that have not returned.... so far
Time will tell
Posted 5/14/2019 3:29 PM (GMT -5)

HeartsinPain said...
Hi guys my doctor just switched me back to AZITHROMYCIN from Rifampin. I was o my one Rifampin for a month but she wanted me to cone off t since I was getting more migraines. I was on Azithromycin for six months and will go back on it for two more months. Is AZITHROMYCIN considered good for Bart? After two more months with my LLMD ( that’s honestly all I can afford, I’ve spend my entire savings.) I’ll do six full months of the full Cowden protocol. She’s this seem like a good plan? I’m about 80% better then I was when I started treating.

Azithromycin alone isn’t a good antibiotic for bart.
Maybe paired with a second
one...
LLMD used to prescribe a macrolide(Azithromycin is one) with a tetracycline (mino or doxy)

But maybe you will be fine with adding the Cowden protocol to it.
Is their bart treatment just the Houttuynia?


You’re doing great at 80%
I hope you continue to improve and are symptom free soon!

Keep us posted
Posted 5/14/2019 3:37 PM (GMT -5)
Thank you Girlie! I meant to mention that I am on Mino daily as well as Flagyl two days a week. She did mention that if need be I’d replace the Zmax with some antibiotic starting with an M (didn’t catch the name due to her thick accent.) next time I see her but I’m seriously running out of money! I’m not sure if the Houttuynua is the only supplement in the Cowden protocol that treats Bart but maybe someone wise can fill us in. Thank you again and hope you get feeling better ASAP as well!

Post Edited (HeartsinPain) : 5/14/2019 2:43:47 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/14/2019 4:57 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
I took Rifabutin with Persister meds more recently - but the Rifampin (no Persister meds) resolved a good majority of my symptoms - that have not returned.... so far
Time will tell

I just had a positive PCR test for bartonella henselae. Despite multiple rounds of antibiotics, the bacteria are not completely gone.
Posted 5/14/2019 5:23 PM (GMT -5)
Yes I tested in 2016 after about year of bart treatment... and still had quite a few symptoms left.

I then dropped my LLND - and self treated bart for awhile longer - I think about 6 or 7 months longer - I changed to Biaxin from mino (with the Rifampin for awhile and also changed the dosing to 600 mg x1 from 300x2)

Then I self treated Babesia for several months before going to the J clinic.
Posted 5/14/2019 5:26 PM (GMT -5)

HeartsinPain said...
Thank you Girlie! I meant to mention that I am on Mino daily as well as Flagyl two days a week. She did mention that if need be I’d replace the Zmax with some antibiotic starting with an M (didn’t catch the name due to her thick accent.) next time I see her but I’m seriously running out of money! I’m not sure if the Houttuynua is the only supplement in the Cowden protocol that treats Bart but maybe someone wise can fill us in. Thank you again and hope you get feeling better ASAP as well!

An M - trying to think which one that would be -
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