This is how nasty Bart is

I was emailing with a forum member who is a patient of Dr. M. He did get into remission...but it was a difficult couple of years for him.
I believe he started on the regular dose of Rifabutin....and then upped it. Hospitalized once (or was it twice) - but stuck with it...and last I heard he was well.

JovaLyme said...
That's the one thing I really don't like about these treatments. Literally years of high dose antibiotics is going to wreck your body eventually.

I just feel like we're all guinea pigs or lab mice sometimes. Does anybody out there really know what they're doing? I'm beginning to wonder.

Not treating or treating inadequately is damaging to the body too as the infections ravage your body and brain.

This is one reason why I like dr j’s approach of non daily abx.
Taking abx less than half of the time.

Rikky1 said...
Dr. M (the bart guru though he's just one of a few) basically treats bart by using high doses of Rifabutin and Biaxin for 18-24 months. He has some people taking 3 rifabutin at one time a day and sometimes 1000mg at one time of biaxin. the high doses and duration is what it takes right now given current medical knowledge and that's not even a sure thing.

I think nasty is an understatement after reading this article, I read more about this teenager and others, in some cases they actually used chemotherapy.

"Antimicrobial susceptibility of Bartonella henselae using Etest methodology"

https://academic.oup.com/jac/article/57/4/761/669359

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6830521/suicidal-teenager-hospitalised-schizophrenia-actually-infected-cat-scratches.html

dailymail.co.uk said...
Teenager caught a mind-altering infection from his cat, started believing he was the 'son of the devil' and having suicidal thoughts. He suffered with hallucinations, rage outbursts and thoughts of killing his family

When I was on Sida Acuta, Houttuynia, and Cats claw to treat it when it flared up. These three herbs did absolutely nothing to hold it back, just my experience anyways, I personally think Stephen Buhner is just pissing in the wind thinking these herbs are going to put bartonella in remission. However, I will say this, after knocking back babesia with primaquine and coartem, CSA formula and A-bart helped me tremendously. I suspect each coinfection has different responses to herbs, but I think something duty is a must to push it back, then herbs can be implemented.

Here's auote from a Professor who has studied Bartonella for 30 years.

“You cannot float humans or horses in enough Doxycycline to kill this bacteria”

https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2013/12/05/bartonella-is-everywhere-so-why-dont-we-know-more-about-it/

Rikky1 said...


Bart treatment desperately needs something like a DSF to come on the scene and change the game. that much abx and those durations has to screw up the gut and immune system. i don't see how it couldn't.

Methylene Blue is the DSF equivalent for Bart but its way behind in terms of people trying it let alone any modern studies/clinical trials. Some are self experimenting but that's not the best approach.

Did anyone catch what the one scientist said in the new video Lyme and Reason.

https://youtu.be/nrpjwtdzcjq?t=958

Dr. Brian Fallon Columbia University said...


It appears in the mouse model, the blood denatures disulfiram that it would only kill spirochetes for about 10 minutes.

So it's possible that disulfiram may have to be reformulated or administered in IV form for better potency.

I personally think something like Pyrazinamide will be a better candidate for Bartonella!
https://youtu.be/bzu0weofvm8?t=5980

I already heard some patients who took this drug on the Bartonella Facebook group, those that took it reached remission with bartonella and others that claimed it helped them better than any drug. Remind you Pyrazinamide was a drug used for drug resistant tuberculosis persister cells. Dr. Ying Zhang has done presentations on this drug theorzing how it would be great for chronic lyme.

I took it a couple years back when I had full blown babesia, it gave me a ton of energy, but then getting off of it, the fatigue would set back in. I have to take it when my bartonella is full blown after knocking back babesia.

I still think something disulfiram may be good for waking up dormant cells and then following up with antibiotics that kill the bacteria. This is the type of protocol they were trying to do with AIDS patients.

https://www.consultant360.com/story/disulfiram-can-wake-latent-hiv-be-killed-study-finds

Rikky1 said...
Scientists seeking a cure for the AIDS virus have discovered that a drug designed to combat alcoholism could be a critical part of a strategy to "wake up" and then kill latent HIV.

So they would basically use disulfiram to wake up dormant HIV cells in the body, then follow up with antiviral drug to kill the virus persister cells.

I suspect there may be all types of different protocols that disulfiram may be used in... What about disulfiram with stevia? A biofilm buster with a persister cell killer? I know Dapsone and Stevia worked incredible for me.

Just to let you in on a secret, I did try this when I was on disulfiram, and it did seem to work. I also noticed ice cream with disulfiram tremendously induced herxing for me. As dairy can increase absorption and sugar brings out persister cells making them vulnerable, hence this study.

Sugar Helps Antibiotics Trick and Kill Deadly Bacteria
https://www.livescience.com/14124-sugar-improves-antibiotic-treatment-persistent-bacterial-infections.html

When I did ice cream and disulfiram, it felt as if stones were moving around in my brain, weird as hell. I heard some another patient describe this feeling when being on disulfiram. Maybe those were the nematodes moving around like what Dr. MacDonald was talking about, with borrelia spirochetes hiding out in nematodes. I don't know, but I do know disulfiram is also antiparasitic.

Rikky1 said...

Methylene Blue is the DSF equivalent for Bart but its way behind in terms of people trying it let alone any modern studies/clinical trials. Some are self experimenting but that's not the best approach.

From with any supplement that isn't compounded in a lab, is it's potency, absorption and crossing the blood brain barrier. I see there's a Bartonella group on Facebook totally geared toward Methylene Blue, a lot of lyme patients are trying all types of liquids. Chances are these won't do much considering the absorption and penetrability. However, it's worth a try, I was skeptic that stevia would do anything paired up with dapsone. For me, stevia induces herxing a lot more severe. So severe, I won't even take Stevia with my bartonella antibiotics. I've decided to wait to reincorporate Stevia with the Bactrim and Biaxin protocol I'm on.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 10/14/2019 10:26:58 PM (GMT-6)

jb1994 said...
Two years of antibiotics does seem really excessive. No amount of probiotics can repair the loss of gut bacteria after two years. I sure hope it doesn't come to that for me.

The two years with Dr M was after he had already treated with another Dr. as well.

Last I heard he was doing very well.

I’ll deal with the gut issue after.
Fecal transplants may be an option - as gross as that sounds.

A few people I personally know who are well after being on abx long term (+ 1 1/2 years) and are doing well - they are healthier/happier functioning better than the people I know who are stopping and starting different treatments and not in remission after 2/3+ years.

If there was a shorter, healthier way to treat that worked - we’d all be on it.

I choose to get rid of this and do what I can to repair after.

Eliminating it is Job 1

jb1994 said...
Two years of antibiotics does seem really excessive. No amount of probiotics can repair the loss of gut bacteria after two years. I sure hope it doesn't come to that for me.

For chronic Lyme and co’s - not many people are getting into remission in a year or less....unfortunately.

jb1994 said...
Two years of antibiotics does seem really excessive.

lol Two years, I've been on antibiotics for 8 years going on 9... There's LymeNet.org members that have been on antibiotics for over 10 years.

jb1994 said...
No amount of probiotics can repair the loss of gut bacteria after two years. I sure hope it doesn't come to that for me.

I'm out running, functioning, doing more than majority Americans do at even normal health. Not saying much, considering most Americans are overweight. While worrying about C-Diff and SIBO is very well justified, I think digesting plenty probiotics, fermented foods like Kefir and Sauerkraut will keep a well balanced gut despite taking antibiotics, some say Sauerkraut is a German super food for that reason.

But without a doubt, if something like disulfiram is available now that doesn't effect the microbiome, that's a big plus in fighting this disease. I know Dr. H in New York said that even Dapsone doesn't effect the microbiome much. If I'm not mistaken, I think Dr. H also said rifampin isn't hard on the gut either.

jb1994 said...
No amount of probiotics can repair the loss of gut bacteria after two years.

I do hope you realize that even herbs and eating vegetables can even alter the microbiome. Anything antibacterial can alter your microbiome jb1994, hence being antimicrobial, herbs aren't perfect either... If something like cats claw is killing off spirochetes, it's also killing off good bacteria in your gut.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2728691/
"Human Gut Bacterial Communities Are Altered by Addition of Cruciferous Vegetables to a Controlled Fruit- and Vegetable-Free Diet"

Upatnite said...
My daughter has been on two and now three antibiotics at once for two years in March. Each addition to her protocol was scary and I’ve questioned the use of the drugs out of fear of side affects and long term damage all through out. But I too can say that she’s light years better because of them. I still worry about the antibiotics and side effects but have definitely calmed down about it over time as I have seen the great benefit she’s experienced. I like most of you, worry and obsess daily about treatment, but nothing scares me more than the damage caused by these infections.

My thoughts are I'd be more worried about developing a permanent autoimmune condition like Ben Petrick has for not treating with antibiotics early enough or what Michael J Fox has developed to after contracting lyme. But to each his own, if you think the side effects from antibiotics is more severe than what chronic lyme disease can lead up to by not treating, I do understand. I mean there's some with cancer that would rather not treat with chemo because it's like dropping a bomb on your immune system. However, I think we're talking about apples and oranges here, while someone like Stephen Buhner, who dropped out of high school remind you, compares antibiotics to things like chemo, I don't think it's as harmful as some suspect. I think Buhner and Rawls have created a growing trend within the lyme community to convince antibiotics are bad, but yet you look at the patients who've reached remission the most, it's from antibiotics.

I still like to bring up Buhner's opinion of biofilms from time to time, which he's completely wrong.

Stephen Buhner said...
I am not a big fan of the biofilm hysteria that is common among the lyme community right now. ALL bacteria form biofilms. It is just a grouping of bacteria together in one location and the formation of a kind of rigid structure, similar to coral formation in the oceans, that they use to protect themselves. This is just ONE of a great many mechanisms bacteria use to protect themselves from immune responses or antibacterial substances and so on. It is no more dangerous or important than the bacterial ability to use efflux pumps to remove antibacterial substances from their cells or to use the immune system itself to hide from assault. Most herbal medicines are effective against biofilm formations just as are most immune systems. A biofilm may slow down effectiveness of immune response or herbal antibacterials but it does not stop them. It is not the terminator of bacterial protection. Biofilms have been around for eons and plants and immune systems have developed mechanisms for dealing with them. I would not worry about them as of being of particular importance in becoming healthy.

Biofilm is a Hysteria?

"Around 550,000 fatalities each year are attributed to these biofilms in the US"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5821197/applying-tea-tree-oil-extracts-surgical-tools-kill-deadly-bugs.html

After 16 years of antibiotics, Dr. Sapi said she still found biofilms and spirochetes in multiple organs and tissue.

Dr. Sapi said she believes the reason Lyme is chronic, is because of biofilms.
https://youtu.be/_gojg7qzomw?t=12m15s

Also another example of the severity of biofilms causing chronic fatigue... I've heard some LLMDs like this one explain how this material is almost impossible to get rid of in the system.
https://youtu.be/wlqukrz_rj8?t=260

"Biofilm: How This Slimy Coating Is Causing Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel, and More!"
https://bodyecology.com/articles/biofilm-how-this-slimy-coating-is-causing-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia-irritable-bowel-and-more/

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 10/14/2019 10:27:50 PM (GMT-6)

Chiledog said...
I’m with Girlie on this one, ABX long term are way less scary to what these infections are doing to my body.

That being said I still haven’t found something to reverse my worse symptoms but I’m herxing like crazy on Dr H’s protocols.

I think that's a good call, if you're worried about side affects from an alterated microbiome, then pick the antibiotics or drugs that don't alter the microbiome.

Disulfiram isn't an antibiotic, nor does it kill good bacteria, yet it kills all the different forms of borrelia bacteria, as reported by Northeastern University best scientits such as Dr. Kim Lewis.

Then there's also dapsone, both are known as persister cell killers.

Chiledog said...

That being said I still haven’t found something to reverse my worse symptoms but I’m herxing like crazy on Dr H’s protocols.

You may have to include a persister cell antibiotic/drug sooner or later in your protocol, it helps cut down on treatment time, just as pyrazinamide cuts down on treatment time for drug resistant tuberculosis, look up the John Hopkins study as there's a list of persister cell killers.

Girlie said...


I think I was reinfected with Bartonella when my cat died —and left a parting bite on my wrist..which got infected - and needed treatment.
That was in 2016 when I wasn’t being diligent with treatment - coincidentally took some time off at that time.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that Girlie. We have cats all over the neighborhood where I'm at, I always wondered if a simple flea jumped off one, came and bit my ankle, I could easily get infected with bartonella. Scary but I've heard this can happen as well, no need for a scratch, bite or lick from a cat or dog.

Ugh scary stuff guys! Is there an every day herb or tincture that we can take to help boost our immune systems on a daily basis to prevent being reinfected?

Can A-Bart be bought online? Would you guys recommend it? I’m on Sida and Hout along with oregano oil right now.

Cignet said...
Girlie did you see my post? Are you still in contact with the guy? Would be good to know how he's getting on.

I can’t remember the last time I was in contact with him.... prob a year or more.

His forum name is Jackie Moon

He posted in a thread awhile back - maybe a year ago or longer.
I will try to find the thread

Trimethoprim is the best drug for Bart then Levaquin. But drs forget this and try other stuff. The first drug will kill it alone too. Google it and see not the bractim the trimethoprim.