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Need help with Buhner Protocol

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Posted 10/26/2019 6:06 PM (GMT -5)
Hello All,
This is my first post to the group.
I have a question about herbals as I am not sure how to move forward.
I was treated for Lyme 6 years ago and it probably went into remission or else I was bitten again-who knows, but now it is back (same neuro symptoms, buzzy head, weak legs, tired, tremors, etc.). Unfortunately, I have moved and no longer have access to the same treatment I had before. I live in Canada in an area that "doesn't have lyme" (eye roll, especially as according to my dog's vet office it's here, but I guess it doesn't infect humans, eye roll again, haha), so anyway conventional medical treatment is not an option for me. Therefore, I've started Buhner's protocol and feel it's definitely working, but working a bit too much. I've been doing the protocol for just over a month and a half (started too strong and now have backed down, but still experiencing a herx).
I seem to be stuck in a pattern of taking the herbals, feeling ok (and when I say Ok, I mean being able to do a little above the bare minimum in my life, which is better than doing nothing), then herxing (feeling awful), then going off the herbals for a day, start to feel decent again, then take the herbals again, feel ok for a day, then feel awful....repeat. I'm trying to get up to consistent dosing, but just can't seem to get there (I'm a grad student and thankfully don't have to spend too much time at school, I can work from home, but when I do need to go in I find I have to stop taking anything for at least 24 hours in advance so I'm able to function, if not I'm a herxing mess). My dosing times are so sporadic. Here is what I'm taking:
- 1/4 Green Dragon Botanicals JK (I started with taking the whole capsule, now I dump out most of it)
-1/4 Green Dragon Botanicals Cat's Claw (dump most of it)
- 1/4 Green Dragon Botanicals Andrographis (dump most of it)
- 1 drop Chinese Skull Cap
- 1 drop Chinese Cats Claw
- 1 drop Eleuthro
- 1 drop Red Sage Root
I also tried Ashwaganda and had the worst herx ever (brought me back to my last treatments 6 years ago that consisted of really bad herxing, so I have no idea what that was about or it could have been some sort of reaction, needless to say I've not taken it since).
So, my issue is I can't seem to get on a regular dosing pattern. I know Buhner recommends 3 times a day, but I'm lucky if I can dose twice a day and can't if I have a meeting or presentation that I need to be functional for.
Any thoughts?
Posted 10/26/2019 7:22 PM (GMT -5)
Hi Cauliflower Queen... Welcome to our forum.

I'm also Canadian...I'm on the Westcoast. We have several LLND's out here.


I think you need to back down on the dosing and stay there for awhile...before increasing by a tiny amount.

It might be easier if you were taking tinctures instead of capsules. You can take one drop of a tincture at first....

Also wanted to ask you about detoxing? Are you detoxing regularly?
You should be doing several methods everyday.

Some ideas -

- Drinking lots of water daily
- Adding in fresh lemon juice to some of the glasses of water
- taking warm epsom salt baths
- dry brushing your skin prior to bathing
- light exercise
- lymph massages
- Nutramedix Burbur
- Nutramedix Pinella
- Jernigan's products (Anti-Tox)
- sauna
- taking a binder
- taking probiotics - for gut health.

Did you start all those herbs at once? If so...maybe you should just do a couple at a time. When I was on Buhner's herbs...I started with just one...at low dose...for a few days...maybe a week - before adding in the 2nd one...etc.
And just a couple of drops.


Others' will be on with their suggestions.

I'm glad you found us here....lots of support, guidance and knowledge....
Posted 10/26/2019 7:51 PM (GMT -5)
Welcome! I like your username. smile

I agree with Girlie to do as much as you can for detoxification. There's plenty online about this, and plenty of threads on this forum about this, but I'll add to make sure you have a bowel movement every day, and consider adding binders (away from other supplements). Alka-Seltzer Gold is another thing that some people swear by. Some folks are extra sensitive to herxing because of issues like mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS) or mold exposure, so if it's a regular problem for you, then it's worth evaluating other things that could be causing inflammation.

I also recommend taking all liquid herbs to start so that everything can be one drop or even less at first. Also that way you don't waste anything expensive. smile I would get comfortable on cat's claw first, and the gradually add JK, then andrographis, then the others one by one. (This is what I did, and I was taking only cat's claw for a month!) My medical folks were thrilled when I had worked up to ten drops per day of everything in the core protocol. Many believe that full doses are just a guideline, and not a one-size-fits-all approach. If you are herxing from it, then you are treating your infections!

Good luck! Let us know how things go for you!
Posted 10/26/2019 7:58 PM (GMT -5)
I use green dragon core caps. But can tolerate. As well as single herbs. No expert but here my thought...

Are you that sensitive to all of them ? If so than stay low. If you haven't tried to figure out which ones are causing the herx then you could try this..

Some of the herbs might not be a problem for you and others might be. So to figure out you may want to back off then reintroduce one or two at a time. This may seem tedious, but there are some herbs that are more likely to cause flares than others...
so you could group or couple the more supportive ones together and see how that goes( eluthero, rd, Chinese sc and chineses cats claw)

And inro the ' killers' and known herxers (cats claw, andro and even jk) one at a time.

That way you may be able to go up in dosage on some while hanging back on others. Or holding off on one all together if it's a trouble maker.
Posted 10/26/2019 8:02 PM (GMT -5)
You have to go slow. Most people can't jump into the full dose at once if their infection is bad. Work your way up. Start at one drop, even a half drop if you have to. Stay at it for as long as you need, at least a few days, maybe a week even. Then increase by a drop. Rinse and repeat. You're going from 0 to 100 and back again so your body is overreacting.
Posted 10/26/2019 8:35 PM (GMT -5)
Hi C Queen!
As saraeli put it, the max dosages are not strict guidelines... You might consider yourself lucky that your body reacts to such small doses. This way you won't be shelling out too much money for the herbs.

How long after you take the herbs, do you start to feel the effects? If it's a short time (like within the same day) then I too think MCAS could be a part of the puzzle.

You could start over, as saraeli suggested, and reintroduce herbs one by one. Or if you want to come at it from the other side and eliminate one herb the next time you dose, I would get rid of the andrographis and see if that helps.

I think the other encapsulated herbs your currently taking (JK, cats claw) could also be giving you strong reactions, but they are more important. You could try "dumping out" more herb out of each capsule, or consider getting the tinctured versions.

The tinctures you're currently taking are all more supportive type herbs and I believe less likely to cause a negative reaction
Posted 10/26/2019 8:58 PM (GMT -5)
JK, cat’s claw, and andrographis are the most likely to be causing a herx. Drop the doses lower.

I only tolerate tiny doses of many things. Chinese skullcap and Chinese cat’s claw (Gou-teng) did not cause herxing for me. Skullcap is the best herb for me, and I take 2 droppers full. Not sure why ashwaganda would cause a herx other than possibly trouble sleeping at first.

You said: “. . . . I have moved. . . . .”

Did these symptoms return before or after you moved?
Posted 10/26/2019 9:39 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks for the welcome everyone and the quick responses! =)
Unfortunately, there are no LLMDs in my city (the closest one is 3.5 hours away in the next major city) and there's one LLND that I found here, but I can't afford that right now, so I'm on my own.
Thanks for all the advice, I will take the doses down and start the trial and error to see what I'm reacting to the most and see how I feel. I guess I'm just impatient to get well again. I started with the J.K and Cats Claw and then just added everything else as it came in the mail, not the smartest, but I know you all know the frustration of wanting to get better and the impatience of it having to take so long. I do have JK in tincture form so I will switch to that for now.
Thanks for the detox suggestions, Girlie.
To answer your question Walking by Faith about moving, I moved here about 4 years and have been fine until now (same house, so doubtful it's mold issues and there's been no leaks or anything like that).
As Sarali and Potsnpan say I definitely do have MCAS which could be causing some of my general issues. I usually start herxing a day or so after taking the herbals, like if I wait 24 hours for the herx to pass and everything to clear out of my system and then start dosing again, it is usually is the next day that I get thrown into a herx.
Thank you all for responding!
Posted 10/26/2019 10:52 PM (GMT -5)
Cauliflower Queen,

LOL!!! You must have been reading on here for a while if you knew I was suspecting possible mold!!
Posted 10/27/2019 6:09 AM (GMT -5)
WalkingbyFaith = mold awareness
Posted 10/27/2019 8:41 AM (GMT -5)

UnsightlyCygnet🌠 said...
Do you find the Chinese cat's claw gives you a headache? I've been having palpitations and head pressure after taking it for the past 10 days. I'm gonna drop it for today and see how things go. I'm still using Japanese Knotweed, Cat's Claw and Red Sage root. 1 tsp 3 x daily.

Red sage is also quite good for neuro symptoms according to Buhner's book, the head pressure/herx I'm feeling is too much just now and I'll drop it and reintroduce it slowly to see how things go.

Chinese Cat’s Claw (Gou-teng) -
I never noticed anything at all from it. I took tiny doses for a long time, thinking I would have issues with it like I did regular cat’s claw. I was taking 15 drops, which still is very small dose. I ran out recently and haven’t re-ordered.

Red Sage -
Sounds great in theory, but I did not respond well to it. When I started out, I got the Skullcap/Danshen combo. I got up to a dropperful. After about a year, I ordered them separately and did a taste test to gauge my response to each. I had a euphorically positive response to skullcap and a decidedly negative response to danshen (red sage). I dropped the red sage altogether for quite some time and started taking Buhner’s full dose of Chinese skullcap. Some months back, I tested the red sage again, and my response was more neutral, so I added it back at just 7 drops.

I should probably taste test all my herbs again to gauge my response to each, as it changes throughout the course of treatment.

Here’s a link to my previous post on the topic if you’re interested.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4052382

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 10/27/2019 7:45:39 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/27/2019 10:01 AM (GMT -5)

UnsightlyCygnet🌠 said...

So I guess you're still using Buhner right now?

I'm considering a break, just because of my digestive issues, constipation is not conducive to detoxing. sad

Yes, still doing Buhner.

There are ways to deal with the constipation. Natural Calm magnesium supplement works for me. Laxative teas made with senna leaf have also been helpful. Coffee enemas are supposed to be the best detox aid, but I have not done it.
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