Garzie said...

Georgia Hunter said...
The VDR and SOD comment is my opinion based on when I used to be a provider for 23andme. Everyone I ever did a consult for that was sick had these mutations. That includes us Lymmies. Our body causes these mutations to occur when we have too much oxidative stress and it just says the heck with fighting, lets try to cope and live together. It also happens as we age so many older people have these mutations.

Hi Georgia
the VDR is an area i am interested in as its heavily involved in the innate immune system and its ability to deal with intracellular pathogens.

can I check I understood you correctly?
are you saying people who didn't have these mutations at birth, go on to develop these genetic mutations during their lifetime due to environmental factors that drive oxidative stress?

I only ask as this is a bit of a new concept for me -
I know many cells are being mutated all the time - but i had thought these were a very low percentage of the total - and are cleaned up by the body in fairly short order and so the vast majority of the general population of cells in the body is maintained much as we were born with.

epigenetic changes and various genes being switched on or off all the time in response to the environment are something separate from the above - but that was what I initially thought you were describing. but now it seems not.

could you clarify at all?

When I said mutation, I was not referring to sequence level mutations, I was referring to epigenetic shifts. I have been chastised in the past for being too technical so I used mutation in an attempt to "dumb down" what I was trying to say. Epigenetic shifts can cause mutations though decreased methylation, but that is a topic that I am not very well versed on.

viruses don't get expelled individually.

They are expelled in large amounts stuck to droplets.

therefore saying that the virus is so small it would go thru a mask is not correct. The droplets are quite large and will not go thru masks

Now its possible very small amounts of the virus get thru, sure. Masks are not 100%. But they cut down transmission and that is what counts.

Georgia Hunter said...

When I said mutation, I was not referring to sequence level mutations, I was referring to epigenetic shifts. I have been chastised in the past for being too technical so I used mutation in an attempt to "dumb down" what I was trying to say. Epigenetic shifts can cause mutations though decreased methylation, but that is a topic that I am not very well versed on.

thanks for clarifying - thought i had missed a landmark phenomenon in genetic research for a moment there!

There continues to be very bad info about masks popping up here. What we are talking about is physics. Masks work to stop large droplets being exhaled or inhaled and N95 masks are rated to prevent particles .3 or higher from getting through the fibers. If I wear a good mask and you wear a good mask we are reducing the odds of either of us infecting the other with a virus. We've known this for 100 years.

Any doctor practicing in a hospital will tell you exactly why and how the masks are protecting them from getting sick as they treat highly contagious covid patients. They are also all protecting their eyes with glasses or shields.

GH: "There is literature showing that constant mask wearing increases respiratory infections compared to people who don't wear masks."

I did a little searching and could not find anything that supports this.

I did come across what you mentioned above.. "A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers." by C Raina MacIntyre
..but those findings do not seem relevant to an argument against cloth masks (vs. no mask) in other settings.

Please provide a link if you can

potsnpans said...
GH: "There is literature showing that constant mask wearing increases respiratory infections compared to people who don't wear masks."
I did a little searching and could not find anything that supports this.
I did come across what you mentioned above.. "A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers." by C Raina MacIntyre
..but those findings do not seem relevant to an argument against cloth masks (vs. no mask) in other settings.
Please provide a link if you can

The increase in respiratory infections is in people who constantly wear masks is for cloth masks. They get damp and have increased bacterial counts. I would not advocate wearing cloth masks because of the increased infection rate and in a community setting because mask washing or changing is inadequate.

The authors of that study wrote this is response to our current situation.

"Critical shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE) have resulted in the US Centers for Disease Control downgrading their recommendations for health workers treating COVID-19 patients from respirators to surgical masks and finally to home-made cloth masks. As authors of the only published randomised controlled clinical trial of cloth masks, we have been getting daily emails about this from health workers concerned about using cloth masks. The study found that cloth mask wearers had higher rates of infection than even the standard practice control group of health workers, and the filtration provided by cloth masks was poor compared to surgical masks. At the time of the study, there had been very little work done in this space, and so little thought into how to improve the protective value of the cloth masks. Until now, most guidelines on PPE did not even mention cloth masks, despite many health workers in Asia using them.

Health workers are asking us if they should wear no mask at all if cloth masks are the only option. Our research does not condone health workers working unprotected. We recommend that health workers should not work during the COVID-19 pandemic without respiratory protection as a matter of work health and safety. In addition, if health workers get infected, high rates of staff absenteeism from illness may also affect health system capacity to respond. Some health workers may still choose to work in inadequate PPE. In this case, the physical barrier provided by a cloth mask may afford some protection, but likely much less than a surgical mask or a respirator.

It is important to note that some subjects in the control arm wore surgical masks, which could explain why cloth masks performed poorly compared to the control group. We also did an analysis of all mask wearers, and the higher infection rate in cloth mask group persisted. The cloth masks may have been worse in our study because they were not washed well enough – they may become damp and contaminated. The cloth masks used in our study were products manufactured locally, and fabrics can vary in quality. This and other limitations were also discussed.

There are now numerous reports of health workers wearing home made cloth masks, or re-using disposable mask and respirators, and asking for guidance. If health workers choose to work in these circumstances, guidance should be given around the use.

There have been a number of laboratory studies looking at the effectiveness of different types of cloth materials, single versus multiple layers and about the role that filters can play. However, none have been tested in a clinical trial for efficacy. If health workers choose to work using cloth masks, we suggest that they have at least two and cycle them, so that each one can be washed and dried after daily use. Sanitizer spray or UV disinfection boxes can be used to clean them during breaks in a single day. These are pragmatic, rather than evidence-based suggestions, given the situation.

Finally for COVID-19, wearing a mask is not enough to protect healthcare workers – use of gloves and goggles are also required as a minimum, as SARS-CoV-2 may infect not only through the respiratory route, but also through contact with contaminated surfaces and self-contamination.

Governments and hospitals should plan and stockpile proper disposable products such as respirators and surgical masks to ensure the occupational health and safety of health workers. This appears to have been a failure in many countries, including high income countries."


On another note, some polypropylene surgical masks are pretreated with formaldehyde to sterilize them during production. The formaldehyde resin remains on the mask and can cause contact dermatitis in some people. Others immune system is able to handle the formaldehyde but show no signs of dermatitis. Increasing blood flow to the eyes, nose, and face from contact dermatitis can increase the chance of infections IMO. Other polypropylene masks may also be treated with Perfluorooctanoic acid and there aren't any studies if that has any effects on humans. I am just trying to convey that there are two sides to every story and that everyone masking is not universally a good thing. If it stopped the virus, it would be a great thing, but it only slows viral transmission.

Hi Georgia Hunter,

Thanks for all this information! From the very beginning I thought masks were useless and did more harm then good (I also did my research). I didn't buy into the fear mongering as I like to think I have a mind of my own.

I appreciate all the details you went into as well as your explanations as it only confirms what I already thought.

I do have to wear a mask or I wouldn't be allowed into stores to buy food, pick up medicine for my Mom, etc.

Keep up the good work as it is much appreciated!
Denise

I would go so far as to say that mask wearing could do some psychological harm in addition to the physical harm, especially in children and when the virus has an estimated survival rate of at least 99.7% and close to 100% in people under 50. For people over 70, I believe it's currently 94.6%.

It's only hearsay, but I've heard stories of people who have gotten really sick from wearing a mask. My mom has seen people appearing to struggle with wearing the mask at the grocery stores (employees) and there are stories of people who already have breathing issues having trouble with the masks.

If I'm thinking correctly, to say that wearing a mask does not protect you from others but does protect others from you, would be saying that the virus can only go through the mask in one direction. It would mean that the mask can keep the virus in but can't keep the virus out.

Dr. Redfield indicated he didn't agree with the above when he said that he would go so far as to say that wearing a mask could be better protection for the mask wearer than a vaccine would be.

There are many who believe Covid is aerosol spread. Not long ago, the CDC posted information on their website indicating Covid had aerosol spread but then took it down claiming the posting was an "error".

Some may be interested in the following. It now has over 10,000 medical & public health scientist signatures and over 500,000 signatures overall. It has been censored, and Dr. Bhattacharya said in response to this that it's an indication that his position is winning the argument and said something to the effect that science can't survive when an opposing viewpoint is suppressed.

When we can't find certain information online, keep in mind that there is Google censorship and mind control. Not that that is always the issue, but it certainly is a reality.

https://gbdeclaration.org/

https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Here's an article that could shed some light about the masks. It has quite a long section regarding mask wearing.

Partial quotes:

"First, what happens on EGRESS. We will look at droplets because most face coverings will not stop an aerosol and the 2020 propaganda has been focused on droplets.

Assuming that a person is shedding virus and they produce droplets that contain hitchhiking virus, and assuming the face covering actually stops ALL droplets (best-case scenario), the following molecular pathway will likely occur:

1. The droplet will lose its moisture. The timing may be different than just going out into the environment but moisture will be lost. However, the expelled droplets may accumulate faster than evaporation. If that happens, the facial covering starts to become saturated with moisture, mucus, cellular debris, bacteria, etc. as well as virus molecules.
2. The virus molecule DOES NOT EVAPORATE and no matter what happens as far as the droplet is concerned, the virus is now on the face covering, at least initially. This means that the face covering is now contaminated and is a possible source of transmission, both contact and airborne.
3. The virus is not somehow magically “glued” to the mask but can be expelled, whether or not there is still moisture. This can happen the next time a person breathes, speaks, coughs, sneezes, hisses, grunts, etc. So, the virus can be expelled out INTO THE ENVIRONMENT from the face covering.
So, the face covering acts as an intermediary in transmission. It can alter the timing of the virus getting into the environment, but it now acts as a contact source and airborne source; virus can still get into the environment. Since we know that the stability is good on most covering and mask materials, it does nothing to break down the virus until the covering is removed and either washed or discarded (appropriately).

Here is an important point, as more virus molecules accumulate, more are expelled. The face covering is not some virus black hole that sucks the virus into oblivion."

......

"Here are some important points to consider:

1. People who have experienced this virus do NOT need to wear face coverings, period.

2. In the open environment, no one should be wearing face coverings. This is the one place where we can get an assist from nature to help reduce the virus molecules. Considering that less than 5% of transmissions have been associated with open environments (and identifiable activities not random encounters), the risk is truly small.

3. A face covering may be useful when visiting an at-risk elderly person or in a controlled health care setting such as a hospital or nursing home. But, I think that these should be dispensed by trained personnel and should be focused on using Surgical masks wherever possible. The protection is not so much from viruses but face coverings may be more effective in preventing the spread of bacteria and fungi.

4. Children should not be wearing face coverings. We all need constant interaction with our environments and that is especially true for children. This is how their immune system develops. They are the lowest of the low risk groups. Let them be kids and let them develop their immune systems..

5. The “Mask Mandate” idea is a truly ridiculous, knee-jerk reaction and needs to be withdrawn and thrown in the waste bin of disastrous policy, along with lockdowns and school closures. You can vote for a person without blindly supporting all of their proposals!

6. There may be other health risks associated with continued use of face coverings. While this is anecdotal, I have many physician acquaintances and they are all reporting increases in conditions that may be associated with face coverings, such as facial skin infections, nose/throat and sinus infections, even anxiety conditions. An area of concern is the change in breathing patterns that can be directly associated with face coverings. I train regularly. The only time that I wear a face covering is to gain entrance to the public gymnasium where I train (because it is required). The mask is discarded immediately when I start training, as most other people also do. The staff members do not make a fuss because they understand the dangers of doing exertion with a face covering.

7. We also do not know enough about the possible consequences of forcing whole populations to adopt face coverings for extended periods. There may be both health and social consequences that we cannot consider at this time.
.....
Stopping humans from being human will not stop the virus from being a virus!"

Post Edited (ChristianWithLyme) : 10/17/2020 8:52:03 AM (GMT-6)

Live now:

http://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/stream/

pots, you are correct, the literature I referenced does not say what I stated. Russell Blaylock, MD, stated "BY WEARING A MASK, THE EXHALED VIRUSES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ESCAPE AND WILL CONCENTRATE IN THE NASAL PASSAGES, ENTER THE OLFACTORY NERVES AND TRAVEL INTO THE BRAIN."

It is known that wearing a N95 can reduce oxygenation levels by as much as 20% if worn for longer periods. Surgical and cloth masks cause hypoxia and hypercapnia to a lesser extent because they block less airflow which makes them less effective in preventing transmission. Do people with COPD, pulmonary fibrosis, emphysema, or other lung diseases get told that mask wearing can exacerbate their condition? Would that lead to more infections? I would say yes. What about the 33% increase in headaches one study showed because of mask wearing? Would the hypoxia affect immune response and lead to more infections? I would say yes. Would SARS-Co2 causing hypercapnia be an issue to a mask wearer since oxygenation is diminished, most definitely. Hypoxia diminishes CD4 cells by increasing hypoxia inducible factor-1 which inhibits lymphocytes and stimulates Tregs. This will increase your chance of getting an infection.

Patients with already poor immune systems or cancer can have their health further diminished because of mask induced hypoxia.

One study on surgeons measured blood oxygen levels at the onset of surgery and at the end of surgery. The longer the surgery, the more their blood oxygen levels were lowered. They were lowered a significant amount on the longer surgeries. "Low oxygen also promotes inflammation which can promote the growth, invasion and spread of cancers. Repeated episodes of hypoxia has been proposed as a significant factor in atherosclerosis and hence increases all cardiovascular (heart attacks) and cerebrovascular (strokes) diseases."

Quote:

"There is another danger to wearing these masks on a daily basis, especially if worn for several hours. When a person is infected with a respiratory virus, they will expel some of the virus with each breath. If they are wearing a mask, especially an N95 mask or other tightly fitting mask, they will be constantly rebreathing the viruses, raising the concentration of the virus in the lungs and the nasal passages. We know that people who have the worst reactions to the coronavirus have the highest concentrations of the virus early on. And this leads to the deadly cytokine storm in a selected number.

It gets even more frightening. Newer evidence suggests that in some cases the virus can enter the brain. In most instances it enters the brain by way of the olfactory nerves (smell nerves), which connect directly with the area of the brain dealing with recent memory and memory consolidation. By wearing a mask, the exhaled viruses will not be able to escape and will concentrate in the nasal passages, enter the olfactory nerves and travel into the brain."

I found this while reading.

Discussion: Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients. Prior evidence that surgical masks effectively filtered influenza virus (1) informed recommendations that patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19 should wear face masks to prevent transmission (2). However, the size and concentrations of SARS–CoV-2 in aerosols generated during coughing are unknown. Oberg and Brousseau (3) demonstrated that surgical masks did not exhibit adequate filter performance against aerosols measuring 0.9, 2.0, and 3.1 μm in diameter. Lee and colleagues (4) showed that particles 0.04 to 0.2 μm can penetrate surgical masks. The size of the SARS–CoV particle from the 2002–2004 outbreak was estimated as 0.08 to 0.14 μm (5); assuming that SARS-CoV-2 has a similar size, surgical masks are unlikely to effectively filter this virus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc3583916/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28278498/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc7094171/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0042682289904467
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/s0889159120303573
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2176090/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s1535610804002442
https://core.ac.uk/display/77579572
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18500410/
https://headachejournal.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/head.13811
https://www.ratical.org/pandemicparallaxview/jlprr-01-00021.pdf

Post Edited (Georgia Hunter) : 10/17/2020 2:43:38 PM (GMT-6)

Thanks GH, some of that info is worth considering for sure, and I appreciate your opinion as always.

I did end up going through some of the links, however... The study of surgeons wearing surgical masks "Preliminary report on surgical mask induced deoxygenation during major surgery" does not mention “hypoxia”. I’ll just post the abstract here:

Somebody said...
Abstract
Objectives: This study was undertaken to evaluate whether the surgeons' oxygen saturation of hemoglobin was affected by the surgical mask or not during major operations.
Methods: Repeated measures, longitudinal and prospective observational study was performed on 53 surgeons using a pulse oximeter pre and postoperatively.
Results: Our study revealed a decrease in the oxygen saturation of arterial pulsations (SpO2) and a slight increase in pulse rates compared to preoperative values in all surgeon groups. The decrease was more prominent in the surgeons aged over 35.
Conclusions: Considering our findings, pulse rates of the surgeon's increase and SpO2 decrease after the first hour. This early change in SpO2 may be either due to the facial mask or the operational stress. Since a very small decrease in saturation at this level, reflects a large decrease in PaO2, our findings may have a clinical value for the health workers and the surgeons.

..this leads me to believe that the wearing of cloth masks does not induce hypoxia. There may be a slight decrease in oxygen saturation yes, but only if the mask is particularly restrictive and it is worn for long periods. I don't believe cloth masks induce hypoxia or hypercapnia as they are defined in the other studies you cited.. and if they did, I think there would be recognizable symptoms (in which case it would seem natural for a person to go somewhere where they could remove the mask for a few minutes).

GH said...
Russell Blaylock, MD, stated "BY WEARING A MASK, THE EXHALED VIRUSES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ESCAPE AND WILL CONCENTRATE IN THE NASAL PASSAGES, ENTER THE OLFACTORY NERVES AND TRAVEL INTO THE BRAIN.

If someone is already infected and is exhaling active virus, I don’t believe the virus collecting in the mask would have any significant effect on that person’s health outcome (maybe I’m wrong).. but Dr. Blaylock thinks the virus would actually be collecting in the nasal passages? Virologists haven’t voiced this concern as far as I know.. they are by and large recommending masks. I believe the Dr. Blaylock quoted is a retired neurosurgeon.. not gonna give his opinion too much weight here.

GH said...
Do people with COPD, pulmonary fibrosis, emphysema, or other lung diseases get told that mask wearing can exacerbate their condition? Would that lead to more infections? I would say yes."

I don't think the CDC or anyone else is recommending that those people wear masks.

GH said...
Hypoxia diminishes CD4 cells by increasing hypoxia inducible factor-1 which inhibits lymphocytes and stimulates Tregs. This will increase your chance of getting an infection

As noted above I don’t believe it would be accurate to insert wearers of cloth masks into this study.. that being said, I believe Tregs are more complicated than this and it is unclear how they would impact the overall immune response to sars-cov-2. See here:

"Treg activity also benefits the host in many circumstances by controlling immunopathogenic reactions to infection.. ..Tregs can also act to promote immunity in certain settings, such as in initial stages of infection when effector cells must access the site of infection, and subsequently in ensuring generation of effector memory."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22118407/

GH said...
Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS–CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients.

Ok so coughing is still very much an issue. If I have the choice though, I’d rather be coughed on by someone wearing a mask vs the opposite

To be clear, I'm not claiming there is zero cause for concern... just not sure what we can apply here or if any of it is significant.