Why So Little Info About Echinacea?

i have looked into this a little after reading buhner's books ( all of his Lyme books and a couple of others)

I think the reason it's not touted more for Lyme is that Echinacea Augustifolia's main function is as an immune stimulant.

in those with chronic Lyme disease, this may be a good thing in the long run - as many will have innate immune functions that are suppressed (the innate immune function is the type of immunity that the body primarily relies on to fight intracellular infections)
from my reading Echinacea helps to turn on several pathways involved in this innate immune function and may ultimately help the body fight or even clear the infection/s.

however, it is an immune stimulant ( rather than an immune modulator) and many with Lyme have a dysregulated immune response already including things like MCAS - and as such may not be able to tolerate ( or not tolerate well) such immune stimulation.

this immune stimulation is its most potent effect and doses to achieve this function are much lower than those for collagen protection. in the order of 10-30 drops 3x a day

so those with Lyme may well get more adverse symptoms than benefits and i suspect this is why its not more widely used.

on the other hand, i have read here and other places about people taking a herbal remedy for lyme called "Chronic Tonic" - which included it and reported positive results - even complete cure/remission.
see Travellers posts on here.

there is also a certain outspoken individual who pops up on Lyme internet forums under different pseudonyms, claiming echinacea together with iodine and black cumin seed oil is a cure for lyme and bart.
he had some interesting ideas - but was very difficult to communicate with productively.

that's my brain dump anyways - hope it is of some help

Thanks, Garzie and saraeli, for your comments and insight into the use of Echinacea for inhibiting Hyaluronidase (to possibly help rebuild collagen & joints).

I totally see what both of you are saying--about the problem being the fact that Echinacea is too much of a broad immune system stimulant rather than modulator. Sorry to hear about your bad experience with it, saraeli. I guess it still could be a good herb for certain Lyme patients, especially (as you say, Garzie) for chronic or long-term Lyme . . . depending on how major the auto-immune aspect is. Maybe by trial & error, since in many cases of Lyme (my own included), we actually don't know when we were first infected? With me, it's very possible that I was infected 30-something years ago, when I lived in Connecticut.

Great info, Garzie: ". . . from my reading Echinacea helps to turn on several pathways involved in this innate immune function and may ultimately help the body fight or even clear the infection/s.
however, it is an immune stimulant ( rather than an immune modulator) and many with Lyme have a dysregulated immune response already including things like MCAS - and as such may not be able to tolerate ( or not tolerate well) such immune stimulation.
this immune stimulation is its most potent effect and doses to achieve this function are much lower than those for collagen protection. in the order of 10-30 drops 3x a day."

Looks like some of the immune modulators are a better bet, right? I've noticed that Scutellaria (Chinese Skullcap), and Withania (Ashwaghanda) both are listed by Buhner as inhibitors against Hyaluronidase as well as modulating IFN-alpha (an Interferon), and several impactful cytokines (some of which can damage brain tissue). Wow! So maybe the answer for me is small-dose Echinacea along with these other immune-modulators. Thanks again, y'all!

Post Edited (BlueRidgeDave) : 11/21/2020 1:02:40 PM (GMT-7)

"So maybe the answer for me is small-dose Echinacea along with these other immune-modulators"

I don't think echinacea can be taken longterm.. I forget exactly why but just check that out before you make your plan...

Thanks again, you guys.
Garzie says: "i would have to re-check - but I think buhner says large doses continuously for collagen protection - so i would tend to infer from that that its safe to take long term." And that is exactly what Buhner says (p. 138, Healing Lyme, 2nd Ed..

Though I suspect, like saraeli mentioned, that it depends on how much of your current illness is autoimmune, as opposed to living, deep organisms, that are still alive and being destructive. (Since Echinacea is apparently kind of a broad immune system stimulant . . . bad news if you have largely autoimmune issues.)

Thanks, sandyfeet, for the link (although I can't get it to work--might have been removed). Germany and other countries have researched herbs SO much more than we do. Your herbal protocol with Rosemary tincture sounds good, also--according to Buhner. Herbs with rosmarinic acid in them (Rosemary, Lemon Balm & others), apparently are also Hyaluronidase inhibitors--and as such should help with minimizing connective-tissue destruction.

Post Edited (BlueRidgeDave) : 11/22/2020 2:25:55 PM (GMT-7)

i think the medicines.org warnings have to be interpreted in the light that the criteria they are likely using to deem that a warning is appropriate are wherever there is ANY interaction ( positive or negative noted )
ie if there is any indication in the literature that echinacea may interact with the breakdown of collagen - then they may well deem that since connective tissue diseases involve the breakdown of collagen - this is an interaction and so should be warned against. (even though a herbalist will likely tell you that slowing down the breakdown of collagen in a disease where it is accelerated is highly desirable).

if you read a number of such mainstream pharmaceutical drug info sites you will often note that they have a general anti-natural or anti-alternative medicine editorial bias.

Then if you read a natural medicine/herbalist type site you will get a picture that almost all plant compounds are safe and amazingly effective.

so i think you just have to interpret their info in that light to keep it in perspective and as Sandyfeet says - proceed with caution only after satisfying yourself you have some overall view of the risks.

thanks for updating us Sandyfeet
interesting that you can tolerate it

I tried just 20 drops of E. Angustifolia root tincture a few weeks ago and found my digestive system reacted badly to it.
not anything horrendous - but v uncomfortable - churning and gurgling and general discomfort after just one dose and lasted for the best part of a day afterward, so at that level I would be uncomfortable and out of sorts all day every day if I added it to my regime. decided that was a sign it was not for me at this point.

i could feasibly try adding it at something like 1 drop a day and see if i could work up to larger doses - but i have a lot of other things going on in my trials and protocol right now - so perhaps something for later.

interested to hear how you get on though - esp if you do have more CD57+ counts done

wishing you every success!