i read this Townsend Letter mentioned in one of the recent posts on here - yesterday and was intrigued by this comment by the author.

"Boluoke, lumbrokinase, or serrapeptase are commonly considered, as are Wobenzym and Researched Nutritionals InflaQuell. When patients are not improving with or tolerating treatment, Mozayeni's first question is often whether they are keeping up with their enzyme intake; he finds that 80% to 90% of the time they are not. "

https://townsendletter.com/july2015/bartonellosis0715_3.html

this seems to strongly suggest that he considers these enzymes crucial to successful treatment for Bart - but though i have heard accounts of people feeling they benefit from one or other of these enzymes - i have not come across LLMD accounts of them being critical to successful treatment before, so am interested to hear if any one else has experience and thought it worth discussing.

i have not personally tried these particular enzymes - but i have tried nattokinase (and natto itself) and bromelain - both of which are also proteolytic enzymes with some systemic effects

typically these enzymes either make me feel worse - or upset my gut to some degree - discomfort, churning, gurgling, mild pains - that kind of thing.

-does anyone have any experiences to offer here ?
-have you been treated by Dr M and found the enzymes critical ?
-or have you been treated by DR M - or other LLMD's following his approach - and found no benefit from them ?
-which ones did you take, how much and what were your experiences taking them ?

All enzymes break down my biofilm. Bromelian at least decrease my inflammation before making me relapse. Serrapeptase and nattokinase break down my biofilm and don’t really decrease inflammation. Serrapeptase is stronger for me. Nattokinase I was able to take without needing abx same day. I also take peptizyde but need to deactivate it after it renders my probiotic hypoallergenic, otherwise I’d need abx. While enzymes hun my blood and break biofilm, none of them seem to have actually ,improved my overall health much.

just dug into what Wobenzym actually is - sees like its a proprietary blend of familiar enzymes
bromelain, papain, pancreatic enzymes and the flavonoid rutin


"WOBENZYM®
Wobenzym® is the result of groundbreaking research conducted in New York by
Austrian physician and scientist Professor Max Wolf in the late 1950s. Private
physician to some of the greatest politicians and celebrities of the time, Dr. Wolf was
highly regarded by his peers and spent long hours in his laboratory researching the
use of his specific enzyme combinations in many different applications. He and his
esteemed associate, Dr. Helen Benitez, developed a sophisticated natural enzyme
formulation using plant-based enzymes bromelain (pineapple extract) and papain
(papaya extract), natural pancreatic enzymes trypsin and chymotrypsin, and the
antioxidant flavonoid rutin. They called it the “Wolf-Benitez-Enzymtherapie”, which
inspired the brand name Wobenzym®"

i understand its a pretty deep subject and not for everyone - i was just particularly interested as for me - the interventions that help the immune system have been the most beneficial in terms of long term gains.

these enzymes look to be another way of modulating the immune system - which is promising - but on the other hand i tend to have strong reactions to these type of enzymes so it presents as a bit of a puzzle as to how to make use of them.

maybe its another case of starting low and going slow .....

"After the enzymes are absorbed, protease molecules can
bind with molecules found within the blood, resulting in the
formulation of an α-2-macroglobulin-protease complex.
This newly formed complex results in a change in its affinity
to bind certain cytokines. Once a cytokine is bound to the
protease, the entire complex is able to be eliminated from
the body""

Just to clarify, the protease in this sentence is part of the enzyme right? The one you ingest?

the way i read the article RC is that Dr M doesn't expect people to progress well on bart treatment without it ( i think this is thought to be due to the micro clotting/ coagulation system dysfunction induced by bart ) which is a pretty striking position - as most people focus on abx on their own - or with a few supporting therapies / supplements - but i have not seen such a strong focus on proteolytic as an essential part of treatment from main stream conventional LLMD's before.

or at least that seemed to be his position in 2015 at the time of the interview - be interested to hear from anyone treated by him recently - and to hear if he still paces such emphasis on the enzymes

the other articles on the immunomodulatory effects of this type of enzyme offers an alternative or parallel mechanism of action - where they suggest these enzymes may bind to and aid excretion of elevated cytokines in the body and thereby help lower inflammation/modulate the immune system and thereby help the patient's recovery from the disease

its another area that is not yet bottomed out - ie which effect is actually taking place or if in fact both are - but its interesting

protease is a general term for enzymes that break down proteins - of which these enzymes are a subset

Cignet said...
Just alongside herbs. I just tried another week pulse of antibiotics 2 weeks ago and it just caused me more misery. I'm getting really depressed about things. It feels like I'm stuck like this and that there aren't any other options. I've also been on the herbs for 2 months solid. No changes. Zilch... I get a little feedback when using the fresh houttuynia but that's all pretty much.

Feeling well gutted. Feel like I'm gonna be doomed to this life for good...

don't loose hope - i was stuck for a long time - maybe 3 years - not knowing what exactly was going on and not making any progress - but beating myself up with strong full on herb protocols and gut treatments.

then i started a new outlook - mainly ketogenic diet and going slow and low and gradually building up - rather than full on treatments that would make me too ill to function -

i also started very systematically trying new things that might help move the needle just a little - and keeping the things that seemed to help - and binning those that didn't

gradually - very gradually at first i started to improve - it is possible - i am half way back now i think - and if anything the gains are improving/ speeding up - so it seems its very hard to get it moving - and perhaps a little easier after that - and just a very long haul project

in case it helps at all - my main trust is
-full buhner extended protocol for lyme
-selection of co-infection herbs to cover just about all co-infections - but with a focus on bart
-methylene blue for bart persisters
-LDN and ivermectin for immune modulation

its a lot - but lyme and Bart are a formidable foe

Garzie is nattokinase good enough by itself?
I have nattokinase 100mg (2,000 FU).
Thank you.

i thought i would post this here - as its kind of a continuation of this discussion

but the missing piece in the continuity of my story is that i found extensive bartonella and fibrin / biofilm in my blood via Giemsa stained thin blood smears in the later part of last year - using a decent biological microscope.

i have initially been checking for Babesia - but was surprised to find such incontrovertible evidence for bartonella - as i expected that to be much more difficult - i will find and link to that post.
see the post on 11/24/2021
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4268122&p=3

anyway back to the thrust of this post and that is my experiments with bromelain as a fibrin dissolving agent. based on the findings that bart was clearly present in my blood along with what looked like substantial biofilms.
however, bart does not, as far as any of the specialist researches know, form its own biofilms, but instead stimulates the body to produce excess fibrin which blocks microcirculation and this drives many of the typical bart symptoms

this is a slide showing excess fibrin ( in red ) deposits lining the microscopic blood vessels in a bart patient from Dr M's presentation on the Galaxy website
https://ibb.co/fmdrxrb

bromelain may also help break down biofilms produced by other bacteria ( mainly polysaccharides and peptidoglycans ) but other biofilm agents may be more suitable here.

the update i have is that adding bromelain to my already comprehensive anti-microbial and immune modulating regime ( see my signature for a rough outline ) caused significant herx like reactions - mainly worsening of symptoms of sleep disturbance, fatigue, headaches and pain in limbs -

but as long as i went slowly it was manageable and a few weeks in - even though i am still only taking one 3000gdu capsule of bromelain per day - improvements have started to occur - in particular exercise tolerance has gone up
- this week i have done the best mini-workout since getting ill in early 2015
- today i have done my fastest 3 mile walk in 7 years also ( I time them as this is a useful measure of my fatigue levels)

one other real world measure has been interesting (i prefer these as they are less susceptible to the influences of bias or wishful thinking ) - this is capillary refill times.

these have steadily dropped from around 5seconds before bromelain to 2.5 seconds today
i have microcirculation issues from this disease and have reddish purple discolouration on my thighs above my knees.
i perform a capillary refill test on this area by pressing firmly with my thumb for 10 seconds and timing how long for the colour to return to normal after the thumb is removed.

here is a chart taken from my tracker showing the change in capillary refill and exercise over the time i have been taking the bromelain

https://ibb.co/c6qrwvv

its still early days - and my treatment is ongoing - I am just past 50% recovered - perhaps 60% of my former capacity on my good days - but forward progress is difficult for all of us - and so I just thought I would post some positive news of even a little of progress to show change is possible.

Post Edited (Garzie) : 1/5/2022 3:54:26 PM (GMT-7)