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herxing like crazy on Fenben and Doxy

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Posted 12/12/2021 9:18 AM (GMT -5)
Fred

Still using the fenbendazole? I am still using it and the ivermectin.

I have continued to make progress, rotating through the abx and supportives.

I have also been using clarithromycin daily since early July. Its been good for me.

Low dose naltrexone has been useful also.

Garzie

Did you try the fenbendazole?

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 12/12/2021 7:48:53 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/12/2021 10:31 AM (GMT -5)
nope, not tried it yet Carl,

its kind of on my list but i have other things to work on in the meantime

my microscopy experiments have revealed a great deal of biofilm or fibrin material in my blood - so i am starting trials of fibrinolytic enzymes combined with Methylene blue and bartonella and lyme herbs - which are stirring things up noticeably more than just the MB and herbs on their own - but still encouraging - and looks like i just need to go slow with them - like most things i try.

i am only starting with bromelain as its one of the weaker ones - after i can manage that OK i plan to try lumbrokinase - which is the strongest. but will take me a while to get there.
seems like the biofilm / fibrin issue is a big one for me

after that i may try adding pulses of Clarithromycin - or a tetracycline with Fluconazole
Posted 12/12/2021 11:29 AM (GMT -5)
Does the Doxy mess with you a good bit, and if so, in what ways? I think Doxy is hitting both Bart and Lyme with me, so even lower level (100 mg) seems to cause fatigue and other symptoms.

How did you react with zithro?
Posted 12/12/2021 11:51 AM (GMT -5)
Garzie

Mebendazole has been shown to be a pretty potent biofilm breaker, as well as fenbendazole.

See paper primarily about mebenazole but includes fenbenadazole and other "azoles"

In particular look at figure 2 Dose response curve- note response of fenbendazole. Fenbendazole looks to have the lowest mic response.

"Fenbendazole was the most potent compound, with a MIC corresponding
to 0.039 µM. Mebendazole, however, efficiently penetrates
the brain in animal models (Bai et al., 2015) and is in
clinical trial for the treatment of pediatric gliomas in humans
(ClinicalTrials.gov, 2013)." Note the fenbendazole (not approved for human use by FDA) is being used, very effectively, in vivo for gliomas (and many other cancers), so does cross the blood brain barrier.

The context of the below is biofilm response, both existing and preventative.

The Anti-helminthic Compound Mebendazole Has Multiple Antifungal Effects

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5368277/pdf/fmicb-08-00535.pdf
Posted 12/12/2021 12:47 PM (GMT -5)

carlnpa said...
Fred

Still using the fenbendazole? I am still using it and the ivermectin.

I have continued to make progress, rotating through the abx and supportives.

Yes, I am still taking fenben on and off and making gains on that too.
Posted 12/12/2021 12:56 PM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
that interesting Fred - i have also been trailing Ivermectin 1x per week - and finding what i think are mild benefits.

i note that some LLMD's use it continuously for a few days to a week or so for lyme patients and believe it helps normalise the immune system - but specifics are very hard to find -

not much research on its actions in lyme group bacteria - i guess because its an old off patent drug - there is little financial justification for people to do so - but it may be that it has broader than anti-parasitic action. we know it has some antiviral activity.


Garzie. It is a bit confusing why ivermectin would work for lyme but like you said it has broad spectrum action but the thing that really was interesting is what Klinghardt said about antiparasitics and lyme.
He basically said parasites harbor lyme in your body and protect it from abx, so it prevents you from getting better and that if you treat parasites first before treating lyme you can cut lyme treatment from years down to just months.
I think its probably best to use the two together so when the parasites die and release lyme you have some abx on board to kill them as they are being released.
Posted 12/12/2021 12:59 PM (GMT -5)
interesting stuff Carl

the fenben was 100X more active as an antifungal than Mebendazole

i wonder if the anti-fungal biofilm effects correspond to antibacterial biofilms - since they are made from different stuff / by organisms with different genes
Posted 12/12/2021 1:09 PM (GMT -5)

Fredsmith said...

Garzie. It is a bit confusing why ivermectin would work for lyme but like you said it has broad spectrum action but the thing that really was interesting is what Klinghardt said about antiparasitics and lyme.
He basically said parasites harbor lyme in your body and protect it from abx, so it prevents you from getting better and that if you treat parasites first before treating lyme you can cut lyme treatment from years down to just months.
I think its probably best to use the two together so when the parasites die and release Lyme you have some abx on board to kill them as they are being released.

yes, i have read Klinghardts ideas on parasites - but I tend to think of them as just an idea or theory - but there seems to be v little proof its what is really going on. also, he may be a really nice guy - but something about him puts me off.

even though it was developed as an anti-parasitic drug - and that is the first thing people think of with its use in Lyme - there is quite a bit of evidence for Ivermectin having many off target effects - like immune modulation, anti viral activity etc - so I tend to thing this is what's going on
Posted 12/12/2021 2:54 PM (GMT -5)
Garzie do you think fenbendazole has immune modulating effects?

Also, in regards to Fluconazole, I found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc4790293/

Fluconazole is in Table #1.

Side note: I haven't read this study, too fatigued right now, but just wanted to share it.
Posted 12/12/2021 5:09 PM (GMT -5)
Garzie

Might cancer be considered a large biofilm?

Fenben has been proven to be a "cure", ie no evidence of disease (ned), for many cancers.

Facebook has a large cancer group dedicated to usage of fenben, 25,000 plus members. Many are reporting ned with fenben usage.

I believe the construction of a venn diagram would show many crossovers of tick borne diseases with ms, parkinsons, cancer, alzheimers, als, autoimmune disorders, etc.
Posted 12/12/2021 5:19 PM (GMT -5)
Rainy/Garzie

Fenbendazole is "pluripotent drug". Has immune and mitochondrial affects, inflammatory supression, anti viral, anti bacterial etc.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7533386/pdf/jvs-21-e72.pdf

Kind of long but relevant.

"Fenbendazole ([5-(phenylthio)-1H-benzimidazol-2-yl] carbamic acid methyl ester) is used
widely for the treatment of pinworms, helminths, and a variety of other parasitic infections
in laboratory animals, livestock, companion animals, and humans [8,9]. Recent studies
extended its spectrum of pharmacological effects, and gradually revealed previously
unrecognized functions. For example, fenbendazole was recently reported to have anticancer
effects by affecting the function of proteasome and microtubules, as well as glucose uptake
[9-11]. Fenbendazole treatment could improve the functional recovery of a traumatic spinal
cord injury by regulating the function of lymphocytes and the inflammatory response
[12]. Fenbendazole can regulate the function of the mitochondria and the cellular immune
responses of peripheral blood lymphocytes by reducing the production of inflammatory
cytokines, such as IFN-γ, TNF-α, and IL-1β [13,14]. Fenbendazole disrupts the gut microbiota
of Amur tiger [15], indicating that it may affect the growth of bacteria. On the other hand, it
is unclear if it possesses antiviral effects. Importantly, a fenbendazole treatment has several
effects on cellular signaling transduction, such as the Akt and MAPK pathways in porcine
trophectoderm [14]. Because both Akt and MAPK pathways are involved in BoHV-1 replication
[16-18], it was hypothesized that fenbendazole might inhibit BoHV-1 replication.
This study examined whether fenbendazole affects BoHV-1 productive infections in cell
cultures. A fenbendazole treatment reduced virus production by affecting the immediate
early (IE) gene transcription and the synthesis of viron-associated proteins differentially. This
is the first report showing that fenbendazole has antiviral effects".
Posted 12/12/2021 5:23 PM (GMT -5)
i'm not sure about that Carl -
i think while cancer does form a solid mass - and that solid mass helps protect cells inside from the immune system - i think the similarities end there and cancer is its own animal -

characterised by and ever increasing snowball of mutated human cells - with apoptosis switched off - so you just get rampant replication - tissue invasion - etc etc


there is a bit of cross over though - as some bacterial infections ( like bart) have been linked to triggering certain sorts of cancer ( eg breast cancer) through their inflammatory mechanisms
and some tumours do have a certain amount of bacteria living inside them

bacterial biofilms on the other hand are stuff made by bacteria - typically alien to the human body - and resistant to its immune activities. mostly its referred to as extracellular matrix - or ECM - and refers to the compounds that bacteria make and then extrude out of themselves specifically for this purpose

then there is the kind of pseudo biofilms - like fibrin - where rather than make the glue like stuff themselves some like bartonella cause the host to make it for them - or the host makes it to try and protect the cells liking the blood vessels from the bacteria - either way it has similar properties.

at least this is what i have been reading lately

fenbendazole is an interesting compound though

all of the things in your Venn diagram have inflammation as a key mechanism in the aetiology - i think that is the link.

in fact lyme bacteria create proteins that are approx. 50x more inflammatory than most bacteria - and as a result drive inflammation much much harder - this alone can put a person at risk of all of the other things in the list.

thank you for sharing your experiences and wishing you good luck with your ongoing treatment and do keep us posted
Posted 12/12/2021 6:59 PM (GMT -5)

RainyCloud said...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc4790293/

One particular sentence got my attention:

"Interestingly, drugs used for treating other non-infectious conditions including verteporfin, oltipraz, pyroglutamic acid, pidolic acid, and dextrorphan tartrate, that act on the glutathione/γ-glutamyl pathway involved in protection against free radical damage, and also the antidepressant drug indatraline, were found to have high activity against stationary phase B. burgdorferi. "

What if blocked/broken/impaired glutathione pathways are really the key to successful treatment?
Posted 12/12/2021 8:59 PM (GMT -5)
Wlad

With the tick borne diseases there are inflammatory cytokines in excess, and the cellular apopotosis mechanism is broken or hijacked. Bartonella particularly delays apoptosis and uses the "zombie" cell for replication and as a reservoir for continuing infection.

I believe you are correct, the glutathione pathways are broken with TBD's.

That leads us back to luteolin, lactoferrin, fisetin, reseveratol to promote cellular apoptosis (there are others as scripts). To try to repair these pathways.

"Abstract
Background: Inflammatory cytokine activity is increased in many forms of experimental and clinical liver injury including alcoholic liver disease (ALD). Monocytes and Kupffer cells produce cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor (TNF), interleukin (IL)-8, and IL-6 in response to stimuli such as endotoxin (lipopolysaccharide [LPS])."

"Treatment with glutathione precursor decreases cytokine activity."

https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1177/014860719902300101

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 12/12/2021 7:06:09 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/13/2021 4:48 AM (GMT -5)

wladek83 said...


What if blocked/broken/impaired glutathione pathways are really the key to successful treatment?

I think this plays a big part in alot of people. Maybe not all.

My own OAT test showed extremely low glutathione and zero vitamin C.
Basically antioxidant status in the tank and oxidative stress very high.

This has the potential to be a vicious cycle as low glutathione causes high oxidative stress which causes further depletion of glutathione and round it goes.
Posted 12/13/2021 7:44 AM (GMT -5)
For those interested, there are glutathione suppositories for sale on several retailers.

I know that's a very random piece of information,... I wanted to make a thread about it but that would have come off even more random.

The reason I wanted to mention it is due to the low absorption rate of oral glutathione. So I thought it might help people to know it exists.

Yes there's liposomal glutathione but it's expensive and sometimes I wonder if its effective. Maybe suppositories are something to try.
Posted 3/29/2022 6:28 PM (GMT -5)

carlnpa said...
Garzie
Mebendazole has been shown to be a pretty potent biofilm breaker, as well as fenbendazole.

That would be in line with what I've discovered on my own body so far. Both albendazole and oregano oil seem to be known as pretty potent biofilm breakers. I've tried them (not at the same time) and both triggered "heart pain" (I know heart itself does not hurt but whatever was connected to the nerves around it). Single pill of albendazole gave me a mild (5 on a scale of 10) heart pain for 2 weeks.
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