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Recommendations for bartonella?

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Posted 3/12/2022 2:06 PM (GMT -5)
My husband and I both tested high for Lyme, bartonella, and babesia via Vibrant America’s Lyme and Co test.

Our LLMD started with azithromycin but that wiped us out to the point of dysfunction after 3 weeks. (It has also considered and troublingly weakened my husband).

We also tried knotweed, red root, cistus, and pine pollen. Those just added to the fatigue and really bad joint pain.

I can’t afford to keep seeing the dr right now, very expensive follow up visits and treatments. I’d like to try addressing bartonella directly, yet gently.

Any ideas?
Posted 3/12/2022 2:48 PM (GMT -5)
Hi Canary,
It's actually very normal to have a reaction like that - it's known as die-off/herx/Jarrisch-Herxheimer reaction. Most people just call it a herx. This is normal, as the bacteria dies, it leaves behind toxins - that can overload our body's ability to remove all those toxins without us feeling like crude - some (I was one of these) have a great deal of trouble tolerating the herxes, and must move through treatments very slowly because our bodies get overloaded with toxins quickly.

Some say that a person doesn't herx with Bartonella like with Lyme - but many of us beg to differ!! We herx just as much with Bartonella treatments as we do with Lyme treatments.

Are you both detoxing? This is something that many must do in order to be able to get through treatments, and if you aren't sure what I'm talking about, here are a few sites that are just for those of us with these infections:
https://www.ladyoflyme.com/blog/detoxguide

https://www.tiredoflyme.com/detox-methods.html

https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/the-best-ways-to-lyme-detox-on-a-budget

Even with detoxing, some of us still have to move through treatments very slowly, so watch for that.

And, a head's up - mono treatment usually are not sufficient to treat these infections. Your LLMD may be only starting you off with one antibiotic, and plans on adding more as you tolerate each - just be sure that this is the plan!

And, keep asking questions!! That's why we are here!
Posted 3/12/2022 3:04 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks so much for your reply! Yes, we do a lot of detox including activated charcoal, weekly infrared sauna, hyperbaric chamber, coffee enemas, dry brushing, zeolite, bentonite clay, lemon water, etc.

Our LLMD was particularly concerned with my husband, as he hit a really concerning level of pain and increasing fatigue, to the point where he admitted like he felt he was dying. He was starting to lose ability to function, shortness of breath, cold and paling hands and feet, difficulty sitting up, and the “lights turning off” as his vitality leaked away.

Our LLMD decided to stop all abx and to try peptides, plus ozone plasmapheresis. Both are VERY expensive and the peptides have had unnoticeable effects (we haven’t tried plasmapheresis yet).
Posted 3/12/2022 4:12 PM (GMT -5)
Well, I'm glad to hear that your LLMD is aware of the issues and is acting on them. That really helps! LOL!

And good for you two for detoxing like that!!

Some of us are either overloaded with the bacteria of these infections or otherwise just can't tolerate antibiotic treatments - I was one of those - and your husband *may be* as well. Do watch for this. There are other options, as your LLMD has already started looking into those, it seems.

Personally, I had to go with herbal treatments, where I had the most control over how much of what I used daily/weekly. It's so difficult when you are still learning what your body tolerates!! There are a few herbal protocols out there that are reliably good to use - so if that becomes something you need to look into, do ask questions here so you can get some personal recommendations and experiences with the different options.

Unfortunately, healing from these infections can require a lot of patience from a person - which is really difficult when you feel like your husband! I was so sensitive, but I finally found a treatment I could tolerate and healed very well! =) Do tell your husband that he is not alone in his plight in trying to find some treatment he can tolerate, or the patience needed!

You might want to start a new thread asking for experiences with peptides and ozone plasmapheresis - just a thought.
Posted 3/13/2022 11:59 AM (GMT -5)

Traveler said...
Well, I'm glad to hear that your LLMD is aware of the issues and is acting on them. That really helps! LOL!

And good for you two for detoxing like that!!

Some of us are either overloaded with the bacteria of these infections or otherwise just can't tolerate antibiotic treatments - I was one of those - and your husband *may be* as well. Do watch for this. There are other options, as your LLMD has already started looking into those, it seems.

Personally, I had to go with herbal treatments, where I had the most control over how much of what I used daily/weekly. It's so difficult when you are still learning what your body tolerates!! There are a few herbal protocols out there that are reliably good to use - so if that becomes something you need to look into, do ask questions here so you can get some personal recommendations and experiences with the different options.

Unfortunately, healing from these infections can require a lot of patience from a person - which is really difficult when you feel like your husband! I was so sensitive, but I finally found a treatment I could tolerate and healed very well! =) Do tell your husband that he is not alone in his plight in trying to find some treatment he can tolerate, or the patience needed!

You might want to start a new thread asking for experiences with peptides and ozone plasmapheresis - just a thought.

Thank you so much for your encouragement! Yes, it seems like antibiotics were intolerable for my husband. It made me very tired but it really damaged him.

We will keep plugging forward as God allows. Thank you!
Posted 3/13/2022 11:59 AM (GMT -5)
i had major herx like effects from the bartonella herbs and had to step up from very low doses very gradually - over many months - to keep the herx like effects at a level where i could still function
initial dosing was around 1/20th to 1/40th of the doses below and i tried to start only one new herb each week so i could tell what each one did to me

i have made good progress over this time and am now past 50% recovered

i take a number of herbs for lyme ( which i found could ramp up more quickly - but still had to be progressive )

and then some for bartonella and other co-infections - as per below

the ratios are the ratio of herb to menstruum
the % numbers are the alcohol content of the menstruum
and numbers to the right are dose in ml - 4x per day

Lyme herbs:
• Knotweed 1:5 70% - 6
• Chinese Skullcap root 1:4 50% - 2
• Uncaria Rhynchophylla 1:4 60% - 4
• Cordyceps Mycelium 1:4 50% - 3
• Salvia Miltiorrhiza root 1:4 60% - 3.8
• Uncaria tormentosa bark 1:4 60% - 3
• Kudzu root - 50% - 3
• Licorice root – 50% - 0.5
bartonella / coinfection herbs:
• Mahonia root bark 1:5 70% tincture 2.1 (a berberine containing herb)
• Houttuynia leaf 1:5 50% tincture 3.2
• Sida acuta leaf 1:5 60% tincture 1.0
• Teasel root 1:3 45% tincture 0.8
• Alchornea leaf 1:5 50% tincture 1.0
• Cryptolepis root 1:5 60% tincture 1.0

i am also taking fibrinolytic enzymes to help break down the fibrin deposits that bartonella causes and methylene blue for bartonella - more info on these in my other threads
Posted 3/13/2022 12:46 PM (GMT -5)
hi canary , your hubby sounds like he is in a bit of a predicament, he has to make room for treatment as the cell walls to bartonella and borrelia are realy toxic when one begins to kill them off; i had to support organs thru ivs and acupuncture just to get to a point where i could handle treatments . i would do a week of bentonite baths and juicing raw vegetables and then try tip toeing into zhangs bart formula or celcore protocol followed by bvt or that ozone . fwiw when bart was so prevalent in my body when i took a sulfa antibiotic it literally fried my nerve endings and life was unbearable. a little kratom tea and tramadol silenced the pain enough to make some choices . extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. a small fortune and few years later i am still able to walk n ride and play -hold hope for him even if he cant ...
Posted 3/13/2022 2:48 PM (GMT -5)
Hi Garzie, did the Mahonia help you?
Posted 3/14/2022 6:36 AM (GMT -5)
i think so Rainy

i have taken it a few times before and found its one of the herbs i react to with herx reactions very strongly - initially just a few drops a day would trigger some herx reactions

and at one time i took around 1.5ml per day for a couple of days and had a very strong herx reaction to it - nearly had to go to ER - which i thought was odd as berberine stays mostly in the gut with only a little getting into the systemic circulation

anyway - its pretty broad spectrum and especially useful for thing that are in the gut and is active for things like mycoplasma and bartonella, lyme to some degree and chlamydia species - which can all infect the lining of the gut - so is in my protocol for those reasons.

am now at around 8.5ml per day - and tolerating it well
sometimes using mahonia aquafolia root bark - other times berberis vulgaris root bark - which are broadly equivalent berberine containing herbs - both 1:5 70% recipe - per buhner
Posted 3/14/2022 8:25 PM (GMT -5)
That's very helpful Garzie, thank you.

I had never heard of it before.
I do have some berberine but not mahonia.

Berberine made me hungry for some reason.
Posted 3/14/2022 8:45 PM (GMT -5)
So many partners have Lyme and coinfections. When will they admit that these bacterias are spread sexually?! I’m so sorry you’re suffering. I’m on the full Cowden protocol and NAC seems to help. Good luck
Posted 3/15/2022 2:17 AM (GMT -5)

RainyCloud said...
That's very helpful Garzie, thank you.

I had never heard of it before.
I do have some berberine but not mahonia.

Berberine made me hungry for some reason.

Just an FYI - my husband takes Berberine for lowering blood sugar - he’s type 2 diabetic.
So be careful with it - it significantly lowers his morning blood sugar when he takes it in the evening.
(He’s also taking metformin )
Posted 3/15/2022 5:58 AM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...

RainyCloud said...
That's very helpful Garzie, thank you.

I had never heard of it before.
I do have some berberine but not mahonia.

Berberine made me hungry for some reason.

Just an FYI - my husband takes Berberine for lowering blood sugar - he’s type 2 diabetic.
So be careful with it - it significantly lowers his morning blood sugar when he takes it in the evening.
(He’s also taking metformin )

yep - berberine is taken in supplement form by some to try to manage blood sugar level in type 2 diabetes
that condition is really a metabolic disorder though - so its best addressed at the input end - rather than trying to lower high blood sugar after the fact that its become raised.
dietary modification have been shown to be able to reverse the condition pretty successfully
the amount of berberine taken to do this is typically a pretty large dose

however - in the crude extracts of berberine plants ( there are quite a large number of them that are broadly equivalent ) there are chemicals that significantly increase the antimicrobial activity of the berberine in the herb by blocking the enzymes microbes use to deal with berberine - ands as a result for anti-microbial purposes whole herb extracts are more effective than pure berberine preparations.

there is a pretty good list of plants containing berberine here
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/list-of-plants-contain-berberine_tbl1_346439412
buhner prefers either mahonia aquafolium root bark - or phelendron root bark -
but i have found a source of Berberis vulgaris that seems to be just as potent or even a little more so, so i am using that at the moment.
Posted 3/15/2022 10:16 AM (GMT -5)
“ so its best addressed at the input end - rather than trying to lower high blood sugar after the fact that its become raised.
dietary modification have been shown to be able to reverse the condition pretty successfully
the amount of berberine taken to do this is typically a pretty large dose “

Actually the amount is very low. He opens up the capsule and takes about 1/4 of one capsule. He uses it in conjunction with diet and the metformin.
He doesn’t wait til his blood sugar is raised. He takes it in the evening - and his blood sugar is lower in the morning.
Game changer for him
His A1C has significantly improved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2410097/

And he is now experimenting with adding cinnamon.
Posted 3/16/2022 8:19 AM (GMT -5)
Thanks Girlie and Garzie!
Posted 3/16/2022 10:55 AM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
“ so its best addressed at the input end - rather than trying to lower high blood sugar after the fact that its become raised.
dietary modification have been shown to be able to reverse the condition pretty successfully
the amount of berberine taken to do this is typically a pretty large dose “

Actually the amount is very low. He opens up the capsule and takes about 1/4 of one capsule. He uses it in conjunction with diet and the metformin.
He doesn’t wait til his blood sugar is raised. He takes it in the evening - and his blood sugar is lower in the morning.
Game changer for him
His A1C has significantly improved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2410097/

And he is now experimenting with adding cinnamon.

no criticism intended or implied, girlie

i just meant that if it were me, my first port of call in type 2 diabetes would be a fully ketogenic diet - if he has not done so already.

the reason i say this is - its the insulin resistance that drives the high insulin/high blood sugar scenario at its root.
but that high insulin is driven by chronically high blood sugar - and blood sugar cannot be high if you don't put the sugar (carbohydrate) in there in the first place - and over time the insulin resistance reverses.
- in this way we are acting directly on the cause - ie preventing blood sugar from getting high in the first place - rather than trying to reduce it after it does.

hope that makes sense
Posted 3/16/2022 10:57 AM (GMT -5)

HeartsinPain said...
So many partners have Lyme and coinfections. When will they admit that these bacterias are spread sexually?! I’m so sorry you’re suffering. I’m on the full Cowden protocol and NAC seems to help. Good luck

Thank you so much! Yes! I wish this was more accepted, it clearly gets transmitted!
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