Could this be Babesia ??? microscopy+ Bart content

RainyCloud said...
Hi Garzie 🙂,

Yes super strange.
I looked into this and think you're right.

Check out the part I circled here:

https://ibb.co/krwlfrn

Looks a lot like yours.
Is there any way to stain fibrin?

hi Rainy

thats an interesting image - looks like its done with an electron microscope - can you post the link to where its from ?

ref staining fibrin - the giemsa stain does stain it faintly pink/purple - or rather i think its the case that the fibrin itself can be a very dilute gel like substance - a bit like a very weak jello - or a very solid gel like substance - like gummy bears - both are basically a protein gel - consisting some protein and varying amounts of water - the more dilute ones will be very difficult to stain as its mostly water - and that is what seems to be coating the red blood cells

the darker purple stuff in big clumps from my first biofilm slides was more like the gummy bears type stuff - so its interesting that that seems to have cleared first - and this thinner / less viscous / clearer fibrin around rbc's has persisted longer - or perhaps it is a sign that it is being manufactured quicker

i have found references to staining fibrin - eg in clots - but not sure how practical that is at home
(i am basically kludging together bits of 50 year old microscopes, iphones and mixing stuff up in my kitchen)

eg here - but it seems to need polarised light ( ie special light microscopy ) and i am not sure how well even that would show up these dilute gels ( clots tend to be more solid deposits of fibrin )

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2649791/

Thanks Rainy

some good pictures in that paper - shows fibrin is fibrous at this magnification ( the clue was in the name - lol! )

so i wonder if the kind of halo around the rbc's are just fine fibrin mesh that are too thin to see with the normal light microscope -

here is another SEM image showing the fibrin mesh and you could imagine this holding the red blood cells kind of equidistant in its mesh as its smeared on the slide
VIEW IMAGE

and i have seen other giemsa stained images of fibrin where it just looks like blue or purple smear of sticky goo - no fibres visible with normal light microscopy
VIEW IMAGE

interestingly - in that last one the rbc's next to the main fibrin smear are all equispaced but stuck together - very much like the ones in my slides - and your paper shows that fibrin adheres to RBC's very well sticking them together - as is its intended function in clots

or maybe its something else ....

Hi Garzie,

Thought you might be interested:

Interaction of Bartonella henselae with Fibronectin Represents the Molecular Basis for Adhesion to Host Cells

April 18, 2022

https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/spectrum.00598-22

Very interesting Garzie, thank you for that,.... here I was using fibrin and fibrinogen interchangeably lol! I've been reading up on it ever since your post and learned a lot.

I also have a question for you.

Recently I took Nitazoxanide (Alinia) for Cryptosporidium and it moved me forward relatively significantly in my treatment especially with my fatigue. Now, that could of course also be the fact that maybe Cryptosporidium was causing additional fatigue and I simply got rid of that.

Anyway, I've been reading up on Nitazoxanide and found a study that shows it's somewhat effective against Lyme: https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/9/9/542/htm

So I've been doing some research and found 2 microscopy videos from someone on YouTube that I'd like to get your opinion on.

Video 1 (pre-Nitazoxanide) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvyp6unmkfi
Video 2 (post-Nitazoxanide) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uewikacl6mc

So my question is if the description for this video makes sense? In that it seems to have killed most of the Lyme in this person?

I was thinking of trying it again since I'm not in the clear yet.

Thank you!

Hi dcd!

Thank you for the encouraging words! I will definitely keep you guys updated!
I'm seriously considering giving it another try, I was reading how a LLMD in CA was using it to kill the cyst form of Lyme.

In regards to the video, I'm also puzzled. I actually though the little moving dots were maybe the tips of stringy spirochetes? I'm most likely wrong though.

To put it even less crafty, I see a lot of things moving in the first video and not so much in the second haha 😂.

Hi Garzie,

Thank you for your detailed reply and encouraging words, I appreciate it.

Yes I'm really grateful to have gotten rid of the cryptosporidium. I can't find it right now but some LLMD posted on his or her website that it's often found in Lyme patients. I think the issue is that it doesn't eventually go away like it does in healthy people. So I've probably been walking around with it for a very long time. I'm really glad that's over now.

I apologize for the confusion I caused regarding nitroxoline and nitazoxinide. Moving forward I will refer to nitazoxinide as Alinia.

Making things worse, the study that I linked above studied both in the same study haha. I think they refer to it as NTX and NTZ.

Thank you for clearing up the YouTube video. Yeah, when it comes to microscopy videos I've noticed the same thing. 80% of the time the description doesn't match the video. I thought maybe I'm looking at it wrong but I guess it just isn't what it seems. Glad to see you and dcd were able to help.

Very interesting to read your explanation about PCR tests. That's very helpful.

For the cryptosporidium I took Alinia. I also did a round of Albendazole, Mebendazole, Praziquantel, Ivermectin and one that I'm forgetting the name of right now.

I think in the end it really was the Alinia that made the difference. Once I finished the Alinia I noticed that I wasn't as tired as I used to be. Which sounds minor but for someone where extreme fatigue is the primary symptom it's a huge step for me.

It's difficult quantifying it because it's so hard to do and don't want to get my hopes up too much haha, but I'd say it's maybe a 30% decrease in fatigue at a minimum right now.

I haven't taken the nitroxoline yet, I still have to order it and I'm debating giving another round of Alinia a try first.

However, it's definitely not off the table. I like how it says it destroys biofilms in other bacteria. Makes me wonder if it does the same with Lyme?

Thank you again! Glad to see you're back and to know that you had a good weekend (I saw that in the other thread).

Have you done any more microscopy slides?

I wanted to come back and update this thread

I am continuing on my layered treatment protocols with all the things in my signature

I have worked back up to 2x 3000gdu/g capsules of Doctors best Bromelain - again on top of all of that

And added oregano oil - p73 brand – which has a high Carvacrol content of around 18mg per drop – as although I am part recovered, the microscopy in this thread shows I am still harbouring a good amount of bart despite ethe multiple anti-bart agents - and in health outcomes terms I am also either plateauing out or just creeping forward very slowly and I would like to move things along somewhat faster if possible.

I decided to add oregano oil due to Zhang’s work showing its active for Bart, and Lyme and likely many other things -as well as many LLMD’s using it now for lyme and bart patients - and I am now at 4 drops per day and gradually working upward to a target of around 10 drops per day minimum

The oregano oil is very strong – I had noticeable herx reactions that included sleep disturbance, heart palpitations, fatigue and headache from only one drop per day.
This thread was initially started to document my attempts to use microscopy to either detect or rule out Babesia as a possible infection in my case.

To date I have seen nothing that could definitively be identified as babesia in my blood slides - but the other day I read something interesting that I thought I would add here.

One of the leading ILADS LLMD’s a doctor “L” – published some work on his findings with his patients with babesia infection. I think it was presented at one of the recent ILADS conferences. I will put a link to his slide presentation. There were some interesting points in the preso that were new to me:

That babesia in the human body lives mainly in the capillaries (very fine blood vessels) - in fibrin deposits it makes there - so can be hard to find in general peripheral blood – eg drawn from a large vein in the arm – as I had specifically been doing for Bartonella - and is usually done for blood smears.

He had a very compelling images of just how clogged with infected cells / fibrin and babesia the capillaries can be – see images below

VIEW IMAGE
VIEW IMAGE

He is finding mainly babesia ODOCOILEI – a species associated with deer and sheep (deer populations in the USA have increased 100% since 1950)– and not so much babesia microti in his patients. He doesn’t seem to think microti is anywhere near as much of a problem to get rid of as the other forms and doesn’t consider it a “real Babesia” organism. His patients are typically negative for serology to microti and sometimes positive to B. Duncani - which he thinks is actually a cross reaction to the real culprit - babesia ODOCOILEI – which is much more severe and hard to treat.

This is interesting to me as the species most often discussed in studies in Europe where i live and even occasionally in the UK as a species called Babesia Venoratum - which it turns out is simply an alternate name for Babesia ODOCOILEI. This is also the same species the T-Labs has developed an immunofluorescence based test for - working with Dr M.

My partner and I also became ill the winter after being bitten by very aggressive horse flies while picnicking on agricultural land with deer and sheep. And babesia is likely spread by such biting flies as well as ticks - so babesia has always been a possible candidate.

I know some people treat for it regardless – but I have been reluctant to do so without some confirmation – not least because of the expense involved – but also due to having no overt babesia symptoms - like drenching night sweats – and at least none that could not be explained by bart.

In the presentation Dr L – recommends a capillary blood smear as a better method to detect Babesia in people – and looking into this its simply a pin prick blood draw from a region in the body which is rich in capillaries - eg ear lobe – or sometimes the side of a heel. This blood is then smeared and stained exactly as per the previous slides here - but because its taken from the capillaries where babesia lodges itself - the chances of detection are higher.

Its still not fool proof – and sensitivity is an issue with all tests for Babesia – but worth a go
I just need to find the time to dig out the microscopy stuff since my house move – and do a run of slides
I will update here when I do

The full presentation is here and well worth a read if you suffer from biofilms/fibrin – CNS symptoms and fatigue and have failed previous abx treatments
http://hormonerestoration.com/files/babesia%20odocoilei%20ilads%20lindner.pdf

good find Rainy - a relatively recent paper showing more widespread and common infection than seen before when using molecular techniques

this is a trend i have noticed - earlier papers presenting what they describe as sporadic cases - later ones with better methods finding its actually much more prevalent

interesting that in that paper they actually differentiated between odocoilei - and Venoratum - although they were clearly v closely related on the genetic tree

several of the earlier papers i read were in Scotland also - but i have seen papers on rates of infection in outdoor dogs in the south of England that are also high - so i suspect its actually pretty widespread

Girlie said...
“
But wouldn’t put your mind at ease if you treated babesia with Mepron or Malarone for say 4 months….
And then you could put it behind you and not wonder…

You don’t want to circle back around and treat it…

Thanks Girlie - i know what you mean - but for me the expense is an issue
and hard to justify both the time and expense of months of treatment when i have no typical babs symptoms

i am taking numerous agents that are active for Babesia to some extent
methylene blue, ivermectin, Babesia herbs - Sida, Cryptolepis etc in high doses
but we all have to prioritise what we feel are our most likely diagnosis
for me Bart and Lyme are in that spot - and treating those has moved me forward to past 50% recovered
but it would be nice to know if Babesia is in the mix somehow - without spending a fortune on the off chance that it is.
a positive capillary blood smear could do that
hence my post here

of course if it turns out i do have Babesia - it would be easy to say - "there - you should have just treated that all along" - but hindsight is always 20/20 - i am comfortable i have taken the best path possible with the information i have had to date

Hey Garzie,

Check this out, maybe this will help you with your microscopy experiments:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4306414

just updating with the below screenshot from Dr Lindner's video presentation to the Pennsylvania senator

it shows the atypical babesia forms expected in capillary blood smears and "nests" and will serve as a useful guide as to what to look for in my slides

VIEW IMAGE

video link here https://www.senatorbrooks.com/2022/09/15/hhs-092022/

@yea-ok - thanks for your thoughtful post

i think you may be right - initially i thought the 70 fold increase in borrelia must be something very borrelia specific - but i read the article Rainy posted and the authors thought the borrelia increased prevalence was due to immune suppression by the steroid used.

so that mechanism could well be more general with chronic infectious organisms - as all are in some kind of equilibrium with the host immune system.
however like you - i am very wary of trying corticosteroids as i have worked extremely hard for the last 2 years to get to 50-60% recovered and i have heard of some really serious cases of relapse after steroid use.

if i understood Dr L correctly - in the video he said he found Babesia in all of his 80 fatigued patients - with the capillary blood smear method - if so it doesn't seem like any enhancement of the Babesia prevalence in the skin is needed

ref Babs interfering with lyme / bart treatment - there are several potential mechanisms -

>fibrin build up protecting organisms with a physical barrier from the immune system is one

>the other is to do with the immune suppressive effect of the organism itself - apicomplexans - the group of single celled organisms to which Babesia belongs - are thought to be powerfully immunosuppressive to their host. in fact all chronic infections have evolved to interfere with the normal functioning of the host immune system to some degree - those that live in the circulation system in particular have to cause the host to not go into septic shock - as they would with an acute infection in the blood stream - but Babesia is thought to be particularly powerful in its immune suppressive actions.

>there is also the simple fact that all organs are affected by the infection - as capillaries are blocked in all tissues - so liver, kidney, gut, brain, spleen etc etc all have difficulty getting oxygen and nutrients into their cells and waste products out again - and as a result all work much less well than they should do - this must reduce the overall health of the host - and in so doing - reduce the hosts ability to fight the infection

i agree - i used to think the chances of somehow picking up 3 or more of these so called rare infections and having them all concurrently seemed slim - but now i am not so sure.
i depends on the paradigm you use - if these are seen as independent rare events as in current medical mainstream - then it seems unlikely.
if however they are seen as an accumulation over a lifetime - some even passed in-eutero - and each weakening the host a bit more so others are more likely to become chronic - then it looks much more plausible.

i suspect many people are walking around with Lyme, Bart, Babesia and others without knowing it - and leading pretty normal active lives - but its not until the last straw that breaks the camels back happens that everything suddenly goes downhill.

i also agree - the classic symptoms pictures are basically cartoon caricatures of stereotypical symptoms- but due to host specific response - almost any symptom is possible with each in different people - and the degree of symptom overlap is near complete.
little is currently known about how multiple overlapping infections alter the host response - other than more infections are generally associated with worse symptoms and harder treatment
but for instance its entirely possible that bartonella with Babesia presents more like severe bartonella - than typical Babesia

thanks for your input to the discussion

i will update this tread with images when i have done some capillary blood smears - per Dr L's method