Nothings going to change until we get them to acknowledge the existence of borrelia post abx.

I don’t know how that happens, but this is research being done on false assumptions that are foundational to the cdc’s talking points.

Some kind of class action lawsuit maybe? I don’t know..

i agree with you Rainy - the logic is non-sensical

presenting

to astro - there is actually no shortage of science on the topic of bacterial persistence after the recommended 2-4weeks of antibiotic treatment

we already have ample evidence of this and have done for many years
see this list of studies over the past several decades that show bacterial persistence of lyme after abx in humans ( more than 20 separate studies, different authors, published in peer reviewed journals)
its not science that's the barrier -

VIEW IMAGE

the problem is one of ideology ( ie a belief system) - the proponents of which do not want to acknowledge the objective truth - for whatever reasons

perhaps their professional reputations are at stake - having nailed their flag to the wrong ideas for so long they feel they cannot retract

perhaps some actually believe in what they say - but given the evidence that exists - this is hard to credit - even in these times of information bubbles and echo chambers

my best guess of the explanation is straightforward corruption.
i.e. a few key people getting paid to present an alternative narrative to muddy the waters - to prevent chronic Lyme from being recognised as a real disease

who stands to gain ?
one big benefactor would be the insurance companies - who have set their premium and therefore set their profits based on todays known illnesses - and will have to shell out serious sums of money if a new 1million patients come out of the woodwork in America.

i am not a conspiracy theorist - but at the same time that does not mean corruption on a large scale does not exist. i have seen it operating first hand in my professional career

so, do we live in a world where an industry worth 1.3 trillion dollars annually in the USA would conspire to alter the course of medical policy to its own advantage

my answer to this is - yes - i think this is entirely possible

if you look at the ICD codes that insurance companies use to code reimbursements
under lyme disease it lists this set of options

VIEW IMAGE
so you can only have acute lyme disease -
with meningitis
with other neurological issues
with skin manifestations ( ACM)
or with other complications ( which is just myocarditis )

and while the text says -
"antibiotics can cure most cases of lyme disease."
clearly acknowledging that there will be a category of people for whom antibiotics will not cure lyme.

there is no code for chronic Lyme disease

under A69.20
it says this
"The sooner treatment begins, the quicker and more complete the recovery.after treatment, some patients may still have muscle or joint aches and nervous system symptoms. This is called post-lyme disease syndrome (plds). Long-term antibiotics have not been shown to help with plds. However, there are ways to help with the symptoms of plds, and most patients do get better with time."

ah, ok, - so they are not listing a code for chronic lyme - but they do talk about a condition called "plds" (post Lyme disease syndrome)

so people will have medical expenses for that and there therefore has to be a code for that then, right? - as they say there are treatments that will help - so those would have to be coded and reimbursed - no?

nope - a search of ICD for "plds" give no results
VIEW IMAGE

so its not even consistent with itself

in fact, its exactly like the insurance companies just don't want chronic lyme to exist - so they have simply not created a code for it....

the real crime is that other countries who do not have private medical systems like the USA - but publicly funded health systems like the UK and European countries - also look to the CDC for guidance on setting their own medical policies

and as a result - the corruption in one country with 300 million or so residents - actually impacts billions of people worldwide

it is possible a class action suit could challenge this - but the stakes are very high - so i think you would find the funding would materialise to hire the biggest lawyers in America to defend it - so whoever took that on would have to have very deep pockets indeed. which is probably why its not been done
as we can see above - it looks like the evidence is there to do it - and has been for a long time

to my mind - a simple lyme test that was 99% sensitive and 99% specific ( like we have for just about every other infectious disease ) for actual wild types of borrelia - ie the one that people are getting infected with in the real world - not lab grown ones - then this would be the key to unlocking the impasse.

with a clear black and white test - the scale of the problem could be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt and the numbers would start to speak for themselves
mainstream doctors could no longer pass people off with CFS/ Fibromyalgia diagnoses etc etc
and policy would have to change.

The difference with Johns Hopkins though, is it’s a respected university which carries more weight compared to a private or even corporate run lab.

So the original CDC article has a bit more meat to get at
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/29/6/22-1685_article#r17

I found a few things very interesting here in this paragraph "Although persistent infection is often considered as an explanation for lingering symptoms.."

Some of the studies they cited were stretched to fit a narrative they seem to have set out to form.

Even more interesting, the CDC acknowledged a study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24523212/) showing Xenodiagnosis DNA positive for lyme post treatment - in someone with PTLDS. Which they also demonstrated existed in a patient being treated in the acute phase.. Although the study and cdc (in article) dismisses this finding as they say "no evidence for viable spirochete" - well what evidence was there that they weren't viable? From this study "- In Objective #3, patients with persistent symptoms after antibiotic therapy will be evaluated. As an attempt to increase the chances of a positive xenodiagnosis in humans, patients with EM who are in the first 2 days of antibiotic therapy and patients with untreated Lyme arthritis will also be evaluated. Evidence that B. burgdorferi can be recovered by xenodiagnosis after antibiotic therapy in subjects with continued symptoms would change the current paradigm for potential mechanisms of disease and provide researchers and clinicians a tool for identifying patients with persistent infection" WHAT HAPPENED?

Edit - found a more detailed article on the last study. Evidently they were unable to culture or transmit the borrelia to mice - therefore unable to determine dead vs alive bacteria.

Post Edited (loski01) : 5/15/2023 1:47:25 PM (GMT-8)

Bongo

Ying Zhang and his colleagues are also at Johns Hopkins and have published many studies supporting Lyme disease as an ongoing infection, studies showing persister cell activity after common antibiotics, FDA approved drug screens for treating persisters and natural herbal medicines effectiveness against borrelia, bartonella and Babesia.

so i don't think its as simple as one university good and other university bad - or that they are all bad.

i think its more a case that there is a schism in the medical community as a whole - in research as well as clinical practice - and in every human society where there are misaligned incentives there will also be bad actors and corruption.

our job is to navigate that reality as best we can, while acknowledging that many institutions will output a mix useful information as well as misinformation.