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Lyme is coming back. I want to nuke it.

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Posted 7/19/2023 7:18 PM (GMT -5)
Recently I took something that undermined my immune system but I only found out after three weeks. Since then a bunch of Lyme systems have begun to return. I'm mostly concerned about light and sound sensitivity, which I'm starting to feel a bit again. I thought Lyme was under control and was focusing treatment on Bartonella.

Currently I'm taking:
1 gram of cat's claw twice a day,
3,5 ml of Sida Acuta three times a day,
3,5 ml of houttuynia twice a day,
300 mg of cinnamon,
50 mg of oregano essential oil,
600 mg of Japanese knotweed.

Some of these should work against Lyme too but apparently not that well, or maybe my dosages are too low.

I think it's still early enough to nip it in the bud. But I'm very reluctant to go back on antibiotics, I don't wanna damage my gut again. On the other hand, antibiotics always worked better than herbs for me. I used minocycline and clarithromycin in the past because it works for both Lyme and Bart but last time it stopped working for Bart so I switched to herbs.

I'm not really sure which direction to go in. I've been treating myself for some years now without a doctor. Maybe that's why I'm not making enough progress. Although, I've never been as good as I am today. So many symptoms are gone. I know because they are coming back :p and I had forgotten most of them. It's remarkable how fast we can adapt to feeling better again. Only when you slide back is when you realize how much progress there was.


I prefer to hit this hard and fast. I can add minocycline/clarithromycin to the mix but very concerned about my gut. Maybe with an efflux pump inhibitor so I can ditch the herbs. Or I can add banderol. Banderol/cat's claw combo should kill Lyme. I can try rife machines? Do they actually work? It seems interesting. I'm tired of all these pills.
I'm kinda feeling lost, not sure what to do.

Suggestions?
Posted 7/19/2023 7:23 PM (GMT -5)
Maybe this https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/155559382304
No idea if that's a scam or not.
Posted 7/19/2023 8:28 PM (GMT -5)
The symptoms you describe seem more like bartonella. Borrelia mostly caused me muscle aches, arthritis, joint swelling. Borrelia did cause a bad spot in my vision because it formed a cyst under the retina, but it was just that one spot and not overall light sensitivity.

I would think that oil of oregano, side acuta, and japanese knotweed would hit borrelia, so maybe your problem is bartonella? Or maybe it's just not enough, it's really hard to know what doses would be effective. I had a lot of trouble tolerating cryptolepis (which contains the same active ingredient as sida acuta) so just because it's herbal doesn't mean it doesn't have side effects.

Clarithromycin seemed to disrupt my gut a bit less than some other antibiotics because of its short half-life, so it would clear out a bit faster. Minocycline lasted long enough that it would give me diarrhea no matter what.

Unfortunately, as you know, bartonella can become resistant to clarithromycin, although there are some efflux pump inhibitors that may be able to overcome this. I found bartonella to be less resistant to minocycline, but this may depend on what strain you got.

I had success hitting borrelia with valacyclovir, which it's surprisingly susceptible to, even at a dose of just 500 mg. Unfortunately valacyclovir does hit some gut bacteria. It's not as bad as minocycline though. I found that if I took it before bed, most of it would clear out by the next day. I would still get some mild diarrhea though. I don't know what valacyclovir does to bart, since I'd already eliminated the bartonella infection by the time I discovered that valacyclovir could kill borrelia.

Borrelia also has a really annoying habit of absorbing antibiotics, then dying a few days later and releasing the antibiotics, so I would get diarrhea when I herxed even if I hadn't taken antibiotics that day.

Disulfiram or valproate can kill borrelia and mostly don't hit gut bacteria, but both of these drugs are risky with bartonella because they can hit bart just enough to wake up the dormant bacteria, but not enough to kill it, which can make the infection become more active and aggressive. Maybe you already have this problem from something else that you took.
Posted 7/19/2023 9:08 PM (GMT -5)
I'm fairly certain it's Lyme. Haven't had these symptoms in a really long time. All my joints are starting to hurt again. It feels like my knee is starting to swell. Feeling more tired also. A lot of small things like floaters in my eyes. My gut feeling tells me it's Lyme.

Interesting that valacyclovir kills Lyme. I took it in May for reactivated EBV. It did help me feel better but I didn't experience a Lyme herx. And yes, I also had diarrhea.

I did a costly fecal transplant after valacyclovir, my mind is more clear now, so I'm very reluctant to take anything that will disrupt my gut again.
Posted 7/19/2023 9:56 PM (GMT -5)
Well if you really want to kill borrelia, you could take valproate (Depakote, Epilim). I find it highly effective, but the side effects are annoying. I usually only manage to tolerate it for a few weeks and then I need to back off. It makes me feel tired and not able to concentrate, messes with my sleep, and causes weird dreams. Caused oily skin and pimples and hair growth. Also raises insulin levels and causes a lot of weight gain. So after a few weeks of that, I need to take a break and lose the weight. No diarrhea though!

Unlike human cells, borrelia and bartonella both lack the ability to oxidize fatty acids and therefore cannot eliminate the valproate. It slowly builds up over several weeks, causing an ever increasing herx from borrelia die off. The bartonella doesn't necessarily die, but is stressed and forced to become more metabolically active, which can increase symptoms, but also makes it more susceptible to antibiotics.

Just a warning, if you nuke borrelia with this, the fallout is bad. It will keep dying for weeks afterwards, even if you stop taking the pills. I've also found that adding loratadine or valacyclovir accelerates the die off. The limiting factor being just how much herx you can tolerate, and the herx from this is bad.

The effect of valacyclovir is a bit delayed. Borrelia can take it up and store it, but may not try to use it immediately. Then a few days later when it tries to replicate or repair DNA... boom.

I also tried disulfiram and just couldn't tolerate it. It made me extremely manic depressive. The first time I took disulfiram I felt really good. Then later I felt awful. Also borrelia has a tendency to accumulate disulfiram and then die and release it, which is very risky as you can easily overdose from this. This accumulation effect also happens with valproate, but the risk of overdose isn't quite as great.
Posted 7/20/2023 7:08 AM (GMT -5)
if you have made good progress i would resist the urge to do something drastic -"nuke" the infection etc

often that is just the primeval fear centre of our brain taking over unchecked - but logically you more to loose than to gain - and chronic lyme treatment is a marathon rather than a sprint -
so any "Nuking" strategy typically is generally unsustainable and a false economy in the long run
a longer term well thought through plan is much more likely to be successful - that's how the best LLMDs do it

overall i think what you are taking is a good start - and so i would instead consider just layering more useful but safe things on top of your existing protocol that target bart or lyme - but one at a time gradually

if you are self treating - this is important so you can learn what does what - and not end up chasing your tail

the oil of o dose is relatively low - that can safely be increased - again gradually

buhner recommends 30g of powdered knotweed - or 30ml of tincture daily - it can help symptoms
similarly Uncaria Rhynchophylla is recommended for brain inflammation (works with cats claw)
so that could give some relief while working up the protocol

i personally think the damage to our guts by antibiotics is something of a mute point with bart and lyme treatments as both bart and lyme cause inflammatory damage to our guts and microbiota changes towards an inflammatory phenotype anyway - so it will never be right as long as we have these infections

antibiotics could be added strategically to your existing protocol - either continuously or in pulses - but i would stick to those proven to be active for lyme in multiple studies and used extensively by LLMD's rather than those used anecdotally - i don't see a good reason to deviate when there are plenty of proven ones.

i do not know what to think about rife in general - but the "zapper" linked to is just a very cheap item - not worth the price tag - only a few dollars worth of components
if you are going to give rife a proper go - then i would use one of the tried and tested devices that have a community and support around them - rather than a random ebay purchase

overall - don't panic and react - think it through - make a plan and go step by step .

all the best !!
Posted 7/20/2023 9:44 AM (GMT -5)
As to the Clark zapper..

You can find a much cheaper one than 130 euros. It’s a simple device, no need to complicate it.

I’ve used it in the past but not as dedicated as I’d like to of for reviews sake. From blogs I’ve read it seems the zapper does something to stimulate our WBC - as opposed to “zapping” microbes.

Edit- it seems your model also has rife. Using them both might be a bit much. You won’t know what you’re responding to etc

Post Edited (loski01) : 7/20/2023 6:47:35 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 7/20/2023 3:50 PM (GMT -5)
Symptoms are still relatively mild. I think if I hit it hard now I won't herx that bad. It took years to get it to a manageable state and I don't want to repeat that by playing it too safe.
The problem with my gut it is that it impacts my memory a great deal. And my ability to think and work. I'm finally a bit more clearheaded and it would be really bad if antibiotics ruined it again. I need to be able to work or I won't be able to afford treatment anymore. It's a tough decision.

I don't know if rife works so that's why I prefer the cheapest option. The other devices are too expensive.
But it's also unclear to me how it works exactly. You have to hold those sticks over the spot you wanna hit? All the rife videos are very unclear.
Posted 7/20/2023 3:53 PM (GMT -5)
It's actually scary. This is the first time Lyme symptoms are returning. I'm used to it with Bartonella but this is more scary, I'm in uncharted waters.
I don't understand why the herbs I was taking didn't prevent this.
Posted 7/20/2023 7:47 PM (GMT -5)
if abx is not your route maybe look into bee venom therapy (its 3 x stronger then 3 abx put together and doesn't disrupt gut ) and/or stronger herbs like andrographis and allicin...i believe plasma rifes work well if used multiple times a week on each pathogen.watch the anthony holland shattering cancer on utoob if can . hang in there . keep us posted
Posted 7/21/2023 5:34 AM (GMT -5)
decisions made out of fear or desperation are rarely good ones

Lyme is generally a slowly progressing illness - you have time to think and plan

herbs have not been particularly effective for you it seems

though there are more options to try like higher doses, and alternatives to those you have tried so far.
they have helped me - but not enough to turn the condition around completely - but defo helped get me into a better place to be able to tolerate more treatment.

so you could try herbal / natural additions a a first step for 4-6 weeks and see how you feel
if its helping you can stay on that track
if it doesn't seem to be - then you can consider the alternatives

on the other hand you have had success with antibiotics - so i think for me that would be a signal that that is a known productive path to go down

the gut will always tend to recover itself after antibiotics - and if needed you can allow do FMT again if needed - but i would not overstress over this aspect as ultimately effective treatment of the infections is the only way to get to a health place long term - and if you have tried natural approaches - you don't have many proven options left.

there will always be a long tail of esoteric treatments possible - but to my logic - these are best used when you have tried the things that have helped the most people in the past - as the further we stray from that - the less data we have to go on and the more an exercise of hit and hope it becomes.

i'm not saying they don't work for some people - but the numbers are small compared to antibiotics and then herbs - so its always more of an experiment.

all the best
Posted 7/21/2023 1:34 PM (GMT -5)
I don't feel like I have time. I'm beginning to feel flu-ish. I feel like IV antibiotics would be the best. Less hard on the gut. I think herbs can help but not sure if they work fast enough. I wouldn't say the herbs haven't been working. I just wasn't taking them for Lyme. Almost all my bartonella symptoms were gone. But they always returned when I stopped or lowered the dosage. I was gonna try adding nattokinase but now I feel like that will have to wait.

My gut makes me very dumb. It's really hard to think abstractly, my memory is really bad. I read a page in a book or watch a video and I can't remember what I just read or watched. It's bad for productivity and it makes me feel very bad about myself.

I need a doctor to help me but I don't know where to find one. And even then, they are all so expensive.
Posted 7/23/2023 11:59 AM (GMT -5)

Vimzor said...
I don't feel like I have time.

I need a doctor to help me but I don't know where to find one. And even then, they are all so expensive.

yep - i am in the same boat -

self treating is possible - but i think you have to be super pragmatic and rational about it

have a plan, write it down and then go step by step - you can tweak it as you go - but resist the urge to make drastic changes/ throw the plan out all together

otherwise it can make things v hard on you - bouncing around from treatment to treatment out of desperation - without a clear plan - and end up on a real roller coaster ride

the best LLMD's do this step by step approach also - eg Dr J

maybe watch a few of his vids and get the general overview of how he goes gradually and gets results
Posted 7/23/2023 12:42 PM (GMT -5)

Vimzor said...
Recently I took something that undermined my immune system but I only found out after three weeks. Since then a bunch of Lyme systems have begun to return. I'm mostly concerned about light and sound sensitivity, which I'm starting to feel a bit again. I thought Lyme was under control and was focusing treatment on Bartonella.

Currently I'm taking:
1 gram of cat's claw twice a day,
3,5 ml of Sida Acuta three times a day,
3,5 ml of houttuynia twice a day,
300 mg of cinnamon,
50 mg of oregano essential oil,
600 mg of Japanese knotweed.

Some of these should work against Lyme too but apparently not that well, or maybe my dosages are too low.

I think it's still early enough to nip it in the bud. But I'm very reluctant to go back on antibiotics, I don't wanna damage my gut again. On the other hand, antibiotics always worked better than herbs for me. I used minocycline and clarithromycin in the past because it works for both Lyme and Bart but last time it stopped working for Bart so I switched to herbs.

I'm not really sure which direction to go in. I've been treating myself for some years now without a doctor. Maybe that's why I'm not making enough progress. Although, I've never been as good as I am today. So many symptoms are gone. I know because they are coming back :p and I had forgotten most of them. It's remarkable how fast we can adapt to feeling better again. Only when you slide back is when you realize how much progress there was.


I prefer to hit this hard and fast. I can add minocycline/clarithromycin to the mix but very concerned about my gut. Maybe with an efflux pump inhibitor so I can ditch the herbs. Or I can add banderol. Banderol/cat's claw combo should kill Lyme. I can try rife machines? Do they actually work? It seems interesting. I'm tired of all these pills.
I'm kinda feeling lost, not sure what to do.

Suggestions?

How did you fix your gut last time? I found taking bactrim for bart actually made me have more bowel movements which is soooo wierd. I tried hcl and bile salts as well as probiotics. My llmd said I'd be surprised as many patients constipation or gut issues actually are "better" once starting abx meaning bart was effecting the gut in the 1st place and once you gt rid of the bart your gut starts feeling better. That's for some of us not all of us .
Posted 7/23/2023 12:47 PM (GMT -5)

Quin said...
The symptoms you describe seem more like bartonella. Borrelia mostly caused me muscle aches, arthritis, joint swelling. Borrelia did cause a bad spot in my vision because it formed a cyst under the retina, but it was just that one spot and not overall light sensitivity.

I would think that oil of oregano, side acuta, and japanese knotweed would hit borrelia, so maybe your problem is bartonella? Or maybe it's just not enough, it's really hard to know what doses would be effective. I had a lot of trouble tolerating cryptolepis (which contains the same active ingredient as sida acuta) so just because it's herbal doesn't mean it doesn't have side effects.

Clarithromycin seemed to disrupt my gut a bit less than some other antibiotics because of its short half-life, so it would clear out a bit faster. Minocycline lasted long enough that it would give me diarrhea no matter what.

Unfortunately, as you know, bartonella can become resistant to clarithromycin, although there are some efflux pump inhibitors that may be able to overcome this. I found bartonella to be less resistant to minocycline, but this may depend on what strain you got.

I had success hitting borrelia with valacyclovir, which it's surprisingly susceptible to, even at a dose of just 500 mg. Unfortunately valacyclovir does hit some gut bacteria. It's not as bad as minocycline though. I found that if I took it before bed, most of it would clear out by the next day. I would still get some mild diarrhea though. I don't know what valacyclovir does to bart, since I'd already eliminated the bartonella infection by the time I discovered that valacyclovir could kill borrelia.

Borrelia also has a really annoying habit of absorbing antibiotics, then dying a few days later and releasing the antibiotics, so I would get diarrhea when I herxed even if I hadn't taken antibiotics that day.

Disulfiram or valproate can kill borrelia and mostly don't hit gut bacteria, but both of these drugs are risky with bartonella because they can hit bart just enough to wake up the dormant bacteria, but not enough to kill it, which can make the infection become more active and aggressive. Maybe you already have this problem from something else that you took.

Even though I tried sida acuta and it raised my heart rate to like 180, it did wonders for my migraines which I'm guessing must have been bartonella. I've tried motrin ,Tylenol, abx but sida I took 1 drop and almost instantly the migraine subsided which was really fascinating. I could just neve try it again. I almost had a heart attack I swear. My clothes were drenched in sweat and I was shivering and cold at the same time.when these type of things happen, whether it's a herx or not ,I feel it's unsafe to take if it's that unpleasant to where your heart rate goes up to 180 and you feel your going in and out of consciousness. Scared the **** out of me and thought I was going to die, which is such a bummer because I can tell you sida hit he hardest and I think it definitely would have gotten rid of my infections for sure. Funny how some of us get hit harder with the abx while some of us get hit harder with the herbs.
Posted 7/25/2023 7:32 PM (GMT -5)
I was thinking of adding one azithromycin 500 mg / day to my current treatment. Then later adding minocycline and maybe stop using the buhner herbs if I notice the antibiotic still work against bartonella.
But because of my brain issue, see the mri post, I'm not sure what to do now.

Meanwhile, my bones and joints are hurting more every day. My sleep is becoming disturbed again. All kind of small symptoms are coming back. My inability to decide what to do is hurting my health.
Posted 7/26/2023 12:14 AM (GMT -5)
zith is good when it builds up over time can keep bart from reproducing . i heard clarithomycin stops the bone pain . for me i did a year of iv rocephin and 5 yrs bee venom. try andrographis if you really want to hit em hard . however dr klinghardt believes one must get the numbers of pathogens down and learn to live in symbiosis with them . fwiw i still see the occasional spirochete in my microscopy smears. ...so idk if nuking is even possible with a intercellular systemic infection?
Posted 7/26/2023 6:31 AM (GMT -5)

MedicalNerd said...
Even though I tried sida acuta and it raised my heart rate to like 180, it did wonders for my migraines which I'm guessing must have been bartonella. I've tried motrin ,Tylenol, abx but sida I took 1 drop and almost instantly the migraine subsided which was really fascinating.

I tried cryptolepis, which is similar to sida acuta, and it made me very fatigued and nervous. I don't know exactly what it's doing, but I couldn't tolerate it. I didn't have headaches though.

The sweating seems like a herx. I've noticed a pattern with the herxes where when borrelia first dies, I get a lot of sweating and detox, pee a lot, my heart rate goes up, and it's hard to sleep. After a day or two, I am tired and sleep a lot. Then what's left of the dead borrelia comes out and I get cloudy white urine that sometimes smells a bit, although it doesn't smell as bad as bartonella. I pissed out so much of the white stuff that I was afraid it might form a kidney stone, but it never did.
Posted 7/26/2023 1:51 PM (GMT -5)
Hey Quin,

Hope you're doing well!

I was thinking of trying another cryptolepis trial myself. Just curious, how fast did you notice it making you fatigued and nervous? Like the first dose? I'm trying to figure out how to interpret what I might feel when I take decide to take it.
Posted 7/26/2023 2:05 PM (GMT -5)
i know it was not directed at me Rainy - but i have been taking Cryptolepis for a good while now
along with sida and alchornea - fairly high buhner doses

i had to build up slowly - had the usual herx symptosm which for me were
-sleep disturbance
-body aches
-fatigue
-heart palpitations
-increased headaches

all the usual type herx things - but this was only when introducing it and ramping up
once at max dose - and even before that - my energy actually went up
i could do more and i am more calm than before

once or twice when i have ran out of sida or alchornea - i have increased the Cryptolepis by the same amount to compensate ( buhner suggests CSA as equal proportions of each) - and have been surprised to have a herx again - so that tells me its actually stronger for me than the other two

zhangs studies show it as active for Lyme and Babesia - buhner says Bartonella also.
Posted 7/26/2023 3:16 PM (GMT -5)

RainyCloud said...
I was thinking of trying another cryptolepis trial myself. Just curious, how fast did you notice it making you fatigued and nervous? Like the first dose? I'm trying to figure out how to interpret what I might feel when I take decide to take it.

It wasn't immediate but was within a day or two. It didn't seem like a regular herx and I didn't notice a lot of detoxing. I just felt bad, so I stopped taking it.
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