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What exactly is c4a measuring?

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Posted 8/6/2023 8:14 PM (GMT -5)
I initially read this was a toxic marker, then an infectious marker, then back to toxic, then...... now I don't know what to believe.

Oddly, my c4a was normal for about 7 years into illness, then shot up. This was after I had completed bartonella and babesia treatment. However, I never re-tested either. Dr Mozayeni told me after his protocol I was cleared of Bart so I believed him. Now I have a positive IGL mold test so I'm not sure if it's that or a different infection? What are you beautiful peoples' experiences with it here?
Posted 8/6/2023 8:25 PM (GMT -5)
My c4a was 18,000 when I first got sick (reference range 200-2000). Then 11,000 three years later. The last time I had it tested was four years ago when I started feeling much better, and it was 2,500. LLMDs attributed the elevated c4a to infections or mold, but agreed that it was an indicator that inflammatory processes were far too high in my body. Which was obvious. ;-)

I'm interested what others have heard about c4a testing.
Posted 8/7/2023 8:55 AM (GMT -5)
My c4a would move around while on lyme ABX from prob 2000 to 8,000.

However it would greatly elevate at exactly the same time I had elevated candida levels per conventional medical test. My max c4a value was a whopping 55,000. (you read that right). So this was a fact versus assumption lol. I had candida quite a few times on ABX.

Candida and mold are similar when inside your body. Last time tested six years ago after another candida issue, then went on a popular Candida Rx med, C4a then normalized back to 1400 in three months. That was reassuring.

So, despite certain online doctors and lyme specialist, saying there are only certain things that elevate this, that’s kind of nonsense. It’s a whole bunch of different things that can elevate it.

I'm guessing its immune type of inflammation vs body tissue inflammation (a very standard test that I now forget)- since you wont necessarily be positive in both at the same time.
Posted 8/8/2023 9:48 AM (GMT -5)
Wow, your guys' c4a dropped a lot! Do you attribute it mostly to infections or do you think mold/toxins could have been the principal driver?
Posted 8/8/2023 11:21 AM (GMT -5)
"Do you attribute it mostly to infections or do you think mold/toxins could have been the principal driver? "

In my case, both, per my two different elevated levels I mentioned:

1) It went from high while treating tick infections,

2) to higher with candida (after my last months of lyme treatment (which caused candida to form in the gut..AGAIN....sure got tired of that happening),

3) then c4a went back to normal after everything went into remission.

I have tests that correlate with time frames of what was going on. Since I had good insurance, I tested many things repeatedly to take out "guess work". I also did Dr Shoemaker suggested mold tests and mold did not affect or thrive in me, but digestive candida did back then along with positive Candida Albanians antibodies.
Posted 8/8/2023 11:37 AM (GMT -5)
all the scientific litterature says C4a is mostly triggeredby infections

that isn't to say that mold or other things cannot

just that its well known that infections do also

i don't known enough about Shoemakers diagnostic approach - but i thought it was more a case of around 4 or more markers were measured and mold was then inferred more by the relative levels of each versus the others - rather than a simple "high C4a means mold" type equation

there are also quite a few people with polymorphisms in this area of their genome - as its part of the human MHC complex - and that is known to be hypervariable from individual to individual

so some people cannot make normal amounts of C4a or C4b - and are prone to both infections and auto-immunity as a result - but they would not be expected to behave the same in shoemaker style tests either
Posted 8/8/2023 12:12 PM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
all the scientific litterature says C4a is mostly triggeredby infections

that isn't to say that mold or other things cannot

just that its well known that infections do also

i don't known enough about Shoemakers diagnostic approach - but i thought it was more a case of around 4 or more markers were measured and mold was then inferred more by the relative levels of each versus the others - rather than a simple "high C4a means mold" type equation...........................

..............so some people cannot make normal amounts of C4a or C4b - and are prone to both infections and auto-immunity as a result - but they would not be expected to behave the same in shoemaker style tests either

This is another Anecdotal evidence thing, just like lyme....

Mold and candida are also "infections" just a different pathogen family than the usual suspects.

Yes the other Shoemaker suggested tests are a handful of odd ones that should be positive with c4a in his definition to actually be mold. I dont remember what they are off hand, its deep in my paper file/piles.Im surprised he has minimal opinions about Candida though.

In my case, once levels normalized per multiple repeated Qwest lab c4a's (1400) it stayed there which was reassuring.

C3a was another test I did in the past.
Posted 8/8/2023 1:01 PM (GMT -5)
Want me to add more fog here? lol

C4a is no longer reliable at most labs. Shoemaker recommends it done by National Jewish. Lab Corp used to be ok, that changed 3-5 years ago if I recall correctly.

Maybe you had it sent there but I didn’t see a mention.
Posted 8/8/2023 3:22 PM (GMT -5)
Good point, Loski. My LLMDs have only run c4a through National Jewish. I don't know in what way other labs are erroneous (too high, too low, etc.) but I do remember that specific lab being important.
Posted 8/8/2023 3:46 PM (GMT -5)

loski01 said...
Want me to add more fog here? lol

C4a is no longer reliable at most labs. Shoemaker recommends it done by National Jewish. Lab Corp used to be ok, that changed 3-5 years ago if I recall correctly.

Maybe you had it sent there but I didn’t see a mention.

Yep. Thats where I had it sent. I think they were in Colorado(?). Hospital drew the blood and sent it off to NJL vs quest or Lab corp.
Posted 8/9/2023 8:30 AM (GMT -5)
From surviving mold website (Shoemaker):

C4a
Normal Range: 0-2830 ng/ml

C4a has become the inflammatory marker of greatest significance looking at innate immune responses in those with exposure to Water Damaged Buildings (WDB).

The complement system is a group of proteins that move freely through your bloodstream. The proteins work with your immune system and play a role in the development of inflammation.

Each complement activates inflammatory responses, with spillover of effect from the innate immune response to acquired immune response and hematologic parameters.

These short-lived products are re-manufactured rapidly, such that an initial rise of plasma levels is seen within 12 hours of exposure to biotoxins, and sustained elevation is seen until definitive therapy is initiated.

Here’s the page describing the CIRS labs, Shoemaker’s normal ranges, and what the labs indicate: https://www.survivingmold.com/resources-for-patients/diagnosis/lab-tests
Posted 8/9/2023 8:44 AM (GMT -5)
I just had these labs done in June. I have been living in my car since April 2021, so I was quite surprised by these results.

My June results:

C4a - 4,313.5 (was 964.7 in Aug 20)
My c4a has never been this high before, even when first tested. I really don’t know what this means for me, as far as mold is concerned.

TGFB1 - 3,299 (was around 1,500 the 2nd time I was tested 3 months after moving from my parents house to a relative’s house. My 1st test was around 27,000). This has fluctuated widely for me over the years and was only normal at my first re-test after moving from my parents’ house.

VIP - 20.3

My MMP9 and VEGF were all within Shoemaker’s range.

MSH is still <8. It was initially higher than this but tanked early on. I don’t remember it ever coming up.

ADH - <.8. Maybe this is the reason I frequently have swelling in hands/feet?

I don’t really do any treatment now don’t even take supplements much anymore. Maybe the lack of these things has caused inflammatory markers to rise.
Posted 8/9/2023 11:12 AM (GMT -5)
WBF - I don’t think a low ADH would cause water retention in the limbs as described - quite the opposite. Water retention would usually cause that and is warned of in people who take DDAVP for low ADH.

You also want to reference osmolality levels when looking at all that.
Posted 8/9/2023 12:29 PM (GMT -5)
****On the off topic of water retention mentioned above***

1)Edema is not always water retention. If it is, test yourself visually by eating no salt for 1-3 days.

2)It can also be blood in those with leaking spider or varicose veins.

3)It can also be the vien one way valve allowing blood to pool, detected with Limb ultra sound. (minimal invasive surgery can correct this).

4)It can also be lymph fluid.

5)It can also be immune related.

6)It can also be any or all of those combined.

Ive had to study this and went to specialists, Im a combo of four above, but salt is a good 50% of the problem for me. The rest, I can not correct much.
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