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herxing? or just worsening of symptoms?

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Posted 7/7/2014 12:40 PM (GMT -5)
I started doxy on Friday - low dose Friday, Saturday. Felt great Saturday afternoon and evening.
Yesterday went to full dose 200 mg X 2.
Just before bed, my pain ramped up to a level that I don't remember it being before.
Went to bed, and I have a lot of vibrations - hard to get to sleep..but managed to.
Woke up in the wee hours as usual, but this time I had vibrations, and chills...don't usually get that in the middle of the night, along with pain.
My husband had no covers on - it was obviously very warm - so i couldn't have been cold.

Question: Could I be herxing so soon? How do I know. I'm still having pain this morning -my mornings are usually the best for me - but the pain i have this morning is more than usual.
Posted 7/7/2014 1:01 PM (GMT -5)
Sounds like herxing for sure. I had chills with 300mg. of Doxy and it was right away. 400mg. would make me so chilled I would shake really bad but I could never stay on that dose due to horrible nausea. Pain has never really been one of my symptoms but it did give me back muscle pain. Good luck!
Posted 7/7/2014 1:36 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks ToddPaul

Chills have always been a symptom, but never in the middle of the night like that.

My pain has always been quite bad - but last night was a bit worse.
Strange considering saturday I felt good.

How long to herxes last - do they come and go - or are they usually at the beginning of the treatment only?
Posted 7/7/2014 3:22 PM (GMT -5)
Chills has been a symptom of mine too but has been better as of late. We'll see what happens when the winter comes roaring back. I too never got them in the middle of the night even when I was on the Doxy.

Herxes can last a while. When I was on the Synergy Protocol I herxed for a good few months and even 4 straight months with the rashes it brought out. The Doxy chills would only be for a few days but you're on a higher dose and the back pain for the whole month I was on it the first time.
Posted 7/7/2014 4:10 PM (GMT -5)
Yikes - You're not herxing all day long are you?

That sounds horrible.
Posted 7/7/2014 4:25 PM (GMT -5)
hi Girlie..i see now, you ar Igene x positive???

at the end you have some results.

what are you Igene x results? can you mail me?
Posted 7/7/2014 4:30 PM (GMT -5)
The herxes really weren't that bad. By far the worst herx I had was with monolaurin once I got over a gram. It hit my chest and back muscles so hard. Couldn't take it but I'd like to be able to work up slowly enough to eventually take high amounts of it since it obviously was killing something.
Posted 7/7/2014 6:10 PM (GMT -5)
burnoutfree: I'll type out my results here: I don't know how to upload them.
IGENEX IGM result: POSITIVE
CDC RESULT: NEGATIVE

18 -
23-25 IND
28 -
30 -
31 + +
34 -
39 IND
41 +
58 -
66 -
83-93 +

IGENEX AND CDC IGG NEGATIVE
only one positive band = 41 +
Posted 7/7/2014 6:51 PM (GMT -5)
Yes Mister Mike, I read that, too. But, I want to go full throttle on this - don't want to dial back because I don't want to delay my treatment.
If it gets unmanageable, then I will have to , of course.

As it is now, it's awful, but I can handle it. It's a little easier to take now that I have a diagnosis. Not knowing was part of my "pain".
Posted 7/7/2014 7:44 PM (GMT -5)
Girlie, I am right there with you! Bit June 2013, just starting treatment. Keep on it! I started at 100 mg twice a day and just upped and herx ed more. You can start low and build up. Doxy is some harsh stuff, and herxing is awful, but such a good sign! Stay strong!
Posted 7/7/2014 9:09 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks spacecadet
I see in your signature that if you're neuro symptoms aren't better in 30 days, you're going on IV therapy. I don't even know if that is available where I live.

I am thinking of adding Zithromax to my regimen in a couple of weeks. I think I have bartonella and If I combine a macrolide (zithro) with a tetracycline (doxy) - according to Dr. M. R.'s treatment guidelines - it should work.

I haven't decided about what I'm going to use for lyme cyst busting yet.
Posted 7/7/2014 9:27 PM (GMT -5)
I have mainly neuro and foot pain and am starting to suspect batonella too. Most of those symptoms have become much worse on Doxy. I'm loosing my mind! Adding grapefruit Seed Extract as the buster and hoping the doc takes the bartonella seriously. Maybe arithrimyacin first before heading for the IV? With all the posts, sometimes I feel like you are my Lyme twin!
Posted 7/7/2014 10:11 PM (GMT -5)
Well, I was told I probably had Babesia, but I think my symptoms line up with Bartonella.

My main symptoms have been pain, and nervous system stuff - right from the start it was in my nervous system.
I have vibrations in my body, nerve pain, my right foot arch hurts, tingling on the back of my head, pressure behind my eyes, one eye is blurry sometimes, and lots of others.

Do you think you are herxing with the Doxy? My back pain has increased since I started...and I'm hoping it's a herx.

Rifampin is good for bartonella, I think...but I read if you're on doxy then it can reduce the doxy concentration in blood. So, I read Dr. M.R's guidelines to treat bart and he said you could combine a tetracycline with a macrolide. So that's where I came up with zithromax.

good luck!
Posted 7/7/2014 10:29 PM (GMT -5)
Honey, that's herxing!

You've gotta detox. Check out the first thread in this forum to get detox tips.

Take the Epsom salt baths with hydrogen peroxide and ginger.

What works best for me are lemon water and Burbur under the tongue (tincture).

Yes, dial back the dose; I completely agree.

We're with you! We've all been through it.

M
Posted 7/7/2014 11:04 PM (GMT -5)
I am detoxing....do I have to dial back the dose? it won't harm me, will it?
I will give it one more day - if I don't get the pain/chills tonight in the wee hours of the morning, then I'll be okay.

I'm doing the epsom salt baths...but am a little concerned about absorbing the magnesium because of the doxy. But, maybe if it doesn't go through the digestive track, the magnesium is okay?
I'm also doing lemon water, psyllium, silymarin, exercise...

No, don't even mention enemas. Not going there.
Posted 7/7/2014 11:11 PM (GMT -5)
Tumeric capsules made all the difference for me! Welcome to the Herx Club. :/
Posted 7/7/2014 11:58 PM (GMT -5)
Funny, I don't remember joining that club Spacecadet...lol
Posted 7/8/2014 9:51 AM (GMT -5)
The epsom salt baths should be fine; so many people do them, and yes, it's perfectly acceptable to start at a low dose and titrate up. That's what my LLMD told me to, and it worked really well. Otherwise, ur herx might become unmanageable.
Margaret
Posted 7/8/2014 11:08 AM (GMT -5)
spacecadet: Have you tried curcumin? It is actually the ingredient in the tumeric that works at reducing the cykotines (sp?), hence the pain reduction.
I know in a lot of the lyme treatment guidelines, they mention curcumin.
But, hey if the tumeric is working - that's great!

Mike: No, only the doxy. This was in the Dr. M.R. clinic guidelines. I haven't read it anywhere else...but I don't want to take a chance at reducing the doxy's effectiveness.

My pain wasn't as bad last night as the night before, but still worse than it was prior to starting the doxy. I'm sticking with the 200 mg twice daily. I've got plans in August...and I'm really going to try to keep them. But, gotta feel better than this....so not reducing unless I can't stand the pain.
Posted 7/8/2014 11:12 AM (GMT -5)
Mike: Dr. M. R guidelines has three Tiers to bart treatment.

Tier One: Rifampin-based Treatments. In these treatments Rifampin is the main effective ingredient. I combine Rifampin 300mg 2 pills 1 time a day with one of the following: minocycline 100mg 1 pill 2 times a day, bactrim DS 1 pill 2 times a day or azithromycin (Zithromax) 500mg 1 pill time a day. Doxycycline 100mg 1 or 2 2 times a day can be substituted for the minocycline, but rifampin decreases doxycycline levels in the blood. Clarithromycin (Biaxin) 500mg 1 pill 2 times a day can be substituted for azithromycin but rifampin also decreases clarithromycin blood levels.
Flouroquinolone-based Treatments. Flouroquinolones are a class of antibiotics that include a number of members like levofloxacin (Levaquin) and ciprofloxacin (Cipro). I combine levofloxacin 500mg 1 time a day or ciprofloxacin 500mg 1 pill 2 times a day with one of the following: minocycline 100mg 1 pill 2 times a day, doxycyline 100mg 1 to 2 pills 2 times a day, or bactrim ds 1 pill 2 times a day. Clarithromycin and azithromycin are not used with flouroquinolones because together they may cause heart rhythm problems. Levofloxacin seems stronger than the ciprofloxacin.
Clarithromycin and Bactrim DS. I combine clarithromycin 500mg 1 pill 2 times a day with bactrim ds 1 pill 2 times a day with good benefit.
Tier Two:
A Macrolide Plus a Tetracycline. Use one of the following macrolides: clarithromycin 500mg 1 pill two times a day or azithromycin 500mg 1 pill 2 times a day. Combine these with a tetracycline: doxycycline 100mg 1 or 2 pills 2 times a day, minocycline 100mg 1 pill 2 times a day, or tetracycline 500mg 1 pill 3 times a day (note tetracycline is not available in the USA).
Tier Three:
A-Bart by Byron White Formulas. These formulas are only available through qualified practitioners. Follow the directions of your physician.
Treatment Course
For most of the combinations described above, treatment requires 4-6 months. The only exception to this is a treatment which includes levofloxacin which typically requires 1 to 3 months. I treat until most of the bartonella symptoms appear resolved. Fortunately, using the immune supports and tier one or two approaches 95% of people recover from bartonella. The remaining 5% may have relapses or require continuous antibiotics to keep bartonella under control.
Posted 7/8/2014 11:31 AM (GMT -5)
Mister Mike: I'm thinking my symptoms are mostly bart, too.
And, I'm so anxious to get well, that I'm thinking of adding something for bart next week.
I would do rifampin, but I would have to get off doxy...which I'm not wanting to do.
So I will do the Tier 2 method - add a macrolide - so azythromicin.

Then if I have babesia, I can keep the azyth and add mepron.

Sorry, can't advise - no experience...only what I read.
Posted 7/8/2014 12:29 PM (GMT -5)
Mister Mike: FYI - You only do one of the Tiers (not tier 1,2,and 3)

They're just in order of Dr. R's preference.
Posted 7/8/2014 1:30 PM (GMT -5)
I'm not saying Dr. R's treatment guidelines aren't good because I think they're spot on but this statement by him is totally false.

"I think the reaction to the increased dose of the rifampin is part herxheimer reaction and another part side effects. Be aware that treating bart does not cause herx reactions. But treating Lyme does. The rifampin not only treats bart but can treat the cyst form and intracellular forms of Lyme. So it is likely your die off is Lyme related. The ringing in your ears is likely a side effect of the rifampin".

I took Rifampin and had obvious Bart herx reactions (streaked rashes, throat on fire upon awakening) and others have too.
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