Protocol advice for natural treatment without ABX

Hi EvaPilot,
Welcome to the forum! You obviously have done a lot of study about Lyme and co-infections. Well done. Do take a minute to have a look at our "New to Lyme?" section, it has a lot of good information and resources.

I will leave commenting about your herbal protocol to others who have more experience with the different options. Many of our members here have had very good results with an all herbal regimen.

I wonder where you heard that antibiotics won't help you because you have been diagnosed with chronic Lyme (aka Late Stage or neurological Lyme). Many of us have been helped with our long held infections by antibiotics; you might want to access them if your herbal protocol cannot reach your infection. Also, there are many Lyme Literate Doctors who use a combination of antibiotics and herbs.
I'm not trying to talk you out of an all herbal protocol, just hoping that you keep an open mind -- the road back to wellness can be complicated so it is important be able to access all options.

Would it be possible for you to work with a Lyme Literate Naturopathic Doctor? It is very difficult to treat yourself as your judgement can be impaired as you proceed through treatment. Our members here might be able to help you find a suitable practitioner.

I am sorry your MD said you were making it all up and inventing symptoms. For goodness sakes, why would a person make up something this horrible and debilitating? Hope you find another doctor soon!

So you think more realistically 6 months of the Buhner for bart and babs, then the 9 months of cowden after that along with all the support herbs along the way before I try to determine my next course of action? Do you think this is all possible without abx? You didn't mention if abx were part of your treatment but I am trying to avoid for the sake of building a resilience to treatment and liver stress. I'm not sure if I should add abx for bart alone along with herbal and just do completely herbal for lyme or if I should just keep abx out of the protocol. Financially, I cannot afford appointments with the LLMD which would make taking abx difficult. I don't work and I am paying for herbs with the little money I have each money.

That makes me happy to hear :) I actually sent you an email last night, I haven't had a chance to read it over yet but I will. Yes, I live in Virginia currently, possibly relocating to NY though soon. If I qualified for assistance, I would definitely prefer to have an LLMD, I'm just new to all this and it's a lot of information and everything is so expensive :( I know disability is close to impossible to get without years of fighting for it, any assistance advice is greatly appreciated. Any recommendations as far as tweaking the protocol I have come up with?

Post Edited (EvaPilot) : 3/30/2015 4:26:57 PM (GMT-6)

I will probably be in VA for AT LEAST 2 months, possibly longer.

My plan was Bruhner for coinfections first, I guess for at least 6 months and then the condensed cowden for lyme the following 9 months (still retaining maybe the HH or Knotweed and Milk Thistle once switching to cowden). The other herbs, I would be taking the whole time (for detox & immune health).

I like how organized the cowden is and I can get it cheaper through MD ($100/month) but I have heard it's as not good as Buhner for specific coinfections like bart and babs. I don't want to waste money or time (I don't have a lot of either) so I'm trying to formulate the best plan of action to hit the cos first and then continue keeping them at bay while hitting the lyme second.

Sure, that's fine take your time :) I do appreciate the advice and the help!

...oh also, as far as other detox methods go, what would you recommend for someone without a bathtub? Epsom foot baths? How does that work?

Post Edited (EvaPilot) : 3/30/2015 5:43:43 PM (GMT-6)

Oh, and email me again with the areas you will be living in and I'll send you a list of any LLMD's in that area.

Honestly, that's because we are all so unique (requiring something different) and there is a large gaping hole in our science because there is so little of it at this point in time.

Starting with Bartonella treatments may work just fine for you - you won't know until you try. I only meant that you should stay open to needing to change your protocol around if it doesn't seem to be working well or stalls out.

Lyme and Bartonella play well together, too well most often! Together, they often increase Neuro symptoms a great deal. You may find that you have to treat both of them at the same time as I and some other did.

This is all trial and error - even for the LLMD's many times.

Traveler, is there any specific reason you left L-Arginine out of the equation?

Leilex, I am actually located in Roanoke and don't have a car which makes things that much harder :/

Also, what are your thoughts on treatment with Cowden alone? I don't know how well it hits both lyme and cos. I'm going back and forth with what I should do. I like how cowden is so organized though.

Post Edited (EvaPilot) : 3/30/2015 8:55:56 PM (GMT-6)

Oh ok, that's makes sense. Yea, I read to avoid if that was an issue. Any advice on what to start first? I don't know how to go about steadily adding things and increasing the dosages (one thing I like about cowden over buhner). I get overwhelmed so easily now. My own list overwhelms me lol

I went the ABX free route too. Was bedridden and many people thought I was crazy, but I'm really happy I went that route :)

You've done your research.
Cordyceps are great, but make sure you do not have a yeast overgrowth or problem with mushrooms.

Also, I would stay away from echinacea- google TH1 TH2 cells and immunity. Echinacea is not a bad herb, but many people with chronic Lyme just so happen to have too many TH1 and not enough TH2. It's an issue I will address soon on my website, as there is not a lot of info out there, but TH2 herbs like curcumin, resveratol, and green tea seem to work more synergistic ally with Lymies.

Best of luck!

So first of all, please understand that this is just my opinion and I'm not a doctor. Not everyone will agree with what I have to say. And I'd like to say I sooo wish there were more definite answers that I could give you!!!!

I looked up the Mediclear and I would caution you to be careful to not 'double up' on the things that you are already getting through the Mediclear - unless you need to raise the amount you are getting. Even herbs and supplements have bad side effects or create issues when a person takes too much.

Same thing for detoxing, go slow as you can actually create a herx by detoxing too much or too fast. The toxins are in the tissues & joints, and when you start doing dry skin brushing, detox soaks and things like that, they are released into the blood stream where they can cause you to herx due to there being too many toxins in your blood stream at that time.

So by starting off slow and easy and raising up the amount you do slowly, you can avoid herxing simply by detoxing usually. Those with gene mutations that interfere with the body detoxing well can still have issues, but there are treatments for that as well.

I really, really don't like putting time limits on anything with these infections. If you feel you are ready to start treatment in 2, 3, or 4 weeks - then please do so. As long as you realize what you are doing (killing off bacteria that have toxins that can cause you to herx), you can control much of herxing usually with adjusting the amount of detoxing you do and adjusting your herbals. If herxing gets to be too much (and don't try to tough it out), then you lower your dosages (or stop if you need to), so that the body has a chance to catch up to the detoxing needs at that time. Then slowly restart or build your doses back up and continue on.

Herxing is a healing crisis. The body stops or slows healing when there are that many toxins in the blood. It's "fighting" to stay afloat, so it's not too concerned with healing during the middle of a herx. The "harder" the herx, the less healing that takes place.

The biggest thing here is to stay flexible with detoxing and with the herbs/supplements. Listen closely to what your body is trying to tell you and adjust things to help it out. We are here to offer suggestions, to relate what we experienced and to share articles with you.

I've just started the Cowden protocol - well, about a month and a half ago, so I can't really speak on its effectivity/longevity to a major degree, or any of the other herbs taken in the later months of the process. But, so far, it has shown many signs of being effective though. I have noticed days where.. I feel "okay," at least compared to where I have been.

I'd probably be a lot more vocal about it too, if other things weren't keeping me from treating as much as I should be by now.

So, yeah, I do think Cowden's gotten some good products together. The Pinella and Samento, the detox tinctures. Banderol seems to me kind of hit or miss. It works for me, but I have seen others who talk of how intense an effect it had on them, so.. yeah. Everybody's different. I haven't taken it yet, but Houttuynia should be a killer.

I feel like anything from the more talked about, highly talked about, providers has a real possibility of working for you - it is just a matter of sorting through 'um.

Oh hey, I've been recommended red root extract, for detoxing, quite a bit. Consider it.

As for the rest of what you've got planned for yourself, not sure. I'm in a bit of a starved position, when it comes to my treatment, so I'm kinda jealous of all that. XD

Sorry, if this post is a mess. Figured I would try.


P.S. - Traveler mentioned detoxing too fast creating a herx, yeah. The beginning of the Cowden protocol, you're instructed, or at least I was, to do a 3 day cleanse using just the Pinella and the detox tinctures. I'd go through periods of feeling bad, then really good, then bad, good, and so on. Still, honestly, I hadn't felt that well, in months. I haven't since either - so much bacteria, so many toxins. Ha..

But.. yeah.


Best of luck.

Actually, the foot soaks that are most effective are the Epsom Salt and peroxide soaks - and no the water should not be hot at all to begin with and you shouldn't keep your feet in the water for more than 7 - 10 minutes at least the first time until you see how you react. It has a tendency to bring on a herx for many if hot water and/or too much time is spent with your feet in the water.

I used a dish washing tub to soak my feet. To about 1 gallon of water, I used 1 & 1/2 cups of Epsom salt and about 16 ounces of peroxide.

And those that choose to use abx often do much better with herbs added in as well - something to keep in mind. Besides, I healed using herbs only for a 40+ yr old Lyme infection - so you don't have to worry about herbs not being strong enough - they are!