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disturbed by babesia research - please comment

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Posted 8/13/2015 6:57 AM (GMT -5)
Now that I think I've been dealing with an asymptomatic babesia/babesia-like infection, I've been researching more (surprise, surprise :)

I just finished reading Dr. Shaller's Babesia Update 2009 and am quite concerned.

www.personalconsult.com/BabesiaUpdate2009-Ebook.pdf

Dr. Shaller is adamant that standard treatments do not cure Babesia. Apparently, Dr. S claims standard treatment is with 750mg Mepron BID for 5 months (since red blood cells live 4 months).....and he claims that this will reduce the Babesia load but not cure it.

Dr. S contends that the absence of Babesia symptoms does not confirm a cure but, instead, the possibility of Babesia rearing its ugly head in 1-30 years.

How does this fit with Buhner's Babesia protocol that he says to use for 30-60 days and repeat if necessary?

Comments surely welcome :)
Posted 8/13/2015 7:09 AM (GMT -5)
there are plenty of stories out there on how babesia seems to be growing in its resistance to mepron. i can tell you that mepron didn't work for me. i have lyme and babesia duncani and started on zithro/mepron/artimisae and while i did improve after about 10 weeks i hit a wall and started regressing. the next protocol the doctor hit it with guns blazing starting with a round of Coartem then omnicef/tindamax/A-BAB M,W,F along with a biofilm protocol daily and i've been making excellent progress.

my doctor says given his experience with hundreds of patients over 15 years you need to be symptom free for 18 months before he considers lyme or its co-infections to be beaten.
Posted 8/13/2015 8:25 AM (GMT -5)
Herbs are made up of a lot of different, synergistic compounds...mepron and other drugs just contain a single active ingredient. It's much, much easier for bacteria and parasites to become drug resistant.....while herb resistance is virtually impossible.

I can't speak about anti-babesia drugs since I haven't taken any. The anti-babesia herbs I've used (sida, alchornea, cryptolepis and artemisia) all give me babesia herxes. If they weren't killing babesia, I wouldn't herx.
Posted 8/13/2015 8:42 AM (GMT -5)
Thanks for the posts!

I think the concern I developed was more along the lines of how to know when you're healed from babesia - especially in people who had asymptomatic babesia infections.

I can't wait to chat all of this up with my LLMD next week.
Posted 8/13/2015 12:46 PM (GMT -5)
Anyone else?
Posted 8/13/2015 1:24 PM (GMT -5)
Babesia needs to be treated for at least 5 months. The life cycle of a red blood cell is 4 months. Babesia can hide out in the spleen and liver. So even after it is cleared from the blood, it can come back if it is still present in the spleen or liver. So, it is important to treat for a while in order to clear it out. 30-60 days is not adequate.

It also depends on whether someone has Microti or Duncani (possibly another strain). Duncani is more difficult to treat. Unfortunately, it can be hard to get a positive Babesia test. Each strain, such as Microti, is just a grouping of various sub-strains. There is a lot of variations within each strain and it can mutate a lot. So, testing is especially difficult. Also, Buhner says that a patient with only 1 percent of blood populated with Babesia can have severe symptoms. Of course, that does not mean that everyone with 1 percent of the blood infected would have severe symptoms. This also makes testing challenging. I tried testing through IGENEX and did not get a positive result. I feel pretty confident that I have it based on my symptoms and reactions to various meds.

Babesia can be fought off or kept at bay by a good immune system. It is the combination of infections that suppresses our immune systems. As you treat your infections and get them under control, you can get your immune system working better. People with healthy immune systems can have asymptomatic Babesia. Get the infection load down and it should be fine.

There is some Mepron resistance. I have heard from some that it has helped cure Babs. Personally, I think it is good to take a multi-herb / meds approach with Babesia. Hit it from multiple directions. I think it is treatable. It can be difficult, but can be done.
Posted 8/13/2015 1:24 PM (GMT -5)
I don't have any information to add...
Of course now I'm worried about asymptomatic babesia....well, maybe not asymptomatic - I do get sweats - just not drenching...

I guess I will wait and see what the Bartonella treatment eliminates.
Posted 8/13/2015 8:17 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks for your detailed post, LymieGirl!

Your comments about treatment duration make a lot of sense and that timeframe was mentioned in Dr. Shaller's work. 30-60 days seems quite appealing but it doesn't seem appropriate in light of the life of the red blood cell.

I must admit I was comforted by your thoughts. I was hoping things weren't completely dire. It would be nice if they were easier ;)

And, Girlie....

You probably know that Lyme can also cause hot flashes/the sweats. Heck, I had one instance of sore foot bottoms when herxing on abx. I got to worrying about Bartonella.

I've learned that people can not only have asymptomatic babesia but they can also have asymptomatic bartonella - blech. I guess we just keep taking things as they come - eh? ;)

Post Edited (cd3764) : 8/13/2015 7:24:00 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/13/2015 8:48 PM (GMT -5)
Yes, cd3764 - lyme, and bart can also cause sweats.....also low estrogen/progesterone levels...and according to my LLND - even suffering adrenals can cause it....

Just gotta keep on keepin' on.

Going after Bart soon...we'll see how that works... hoping to see improvement in at least one of these symptoms:

- sweats
- nervous system vibrations and/or shivers
- nerve pain

I'd be such a happy camper...
Posted 8/14/2015 11:49 AM (GMT -5)
Buhner also says that some people will have to remain on low dose herbal antimicrobials indefinitely.

I would image those would be the people who, for one reason or another, are unable to regain full immune capability. Causes for this might be improper gut microflora balance (from ingestion of pesticides, insufficient intake of helpful probiotic bacteria from fermented foods), body metal burdens (aluminum, mercury, arsenic etc.) from exogenous sources (vaccines, environmental contamination), lack of essential nutrients, lack of exercise.

This is the reason why CFAO farmers are forced to supplement their animals with low doses of antibiotics. The poor environments they live in and the pesticide laced grains they are fed would inevitably result in poor growth, disease and death without them.

Face it - most of us are CFAO humans.

Beating these infections is not completely about eradicating bacteria/protozoa. They have always been with us and always will be.
Posted 8/14/2015 1:24 PM (GMT -5)

rowingmom said...
Buhner also says that some people will have to remain on low dose herbal antimicrobials indefinitely.

I would image those would be the people who, for one reason or another, are unable to regain full immune capability. Causes for this might be improper gut microflora balance (from ingestion of pesticides, insufficient intake of helpful probiotic bacteria from fermented foods), body metal burdens (aluminum, mercury, arsenic etc.) from exogenous sources (vaccines, environmental contamination), lack of essential nutrients, lack of exercise.

This is the reason why CFAO farmers are forced to supplement their animals with low doses of antibiotics. The poor environments they live in and the pesticide laced grains they are fed would inevitably result in poor growth, disease and death without them.

Face it - most of us are CFAO humans.

Beating these infections is not completely about eradicating bacteria/protozoa. They have always been with us and always will be.

Thanks for the reminder about Buhner's writings and, most especially, your insight.

While I'd prefer to not have to treat indefinitely, my biggest fear is not being able to continue treatment, if needed....because I've become senile or something lol

I have to remind myself to stay in the moment. I've gotten better with that but regressed when I started to think I've been dealing with undiagnosed co-infections. I continually feel like I'm in catch-up mode with these infections.

Soooo curious to hear what my LLMD has to say next week. I suspect he'll support my N=1 experiments :)
Posted 8/14/2015 3:23 PM (GMT -5)
We're really kind of guessing what we're treating. If you have a positive test, you know you are treating that strain of babesia. But what else do you have? I think we all have quite a bit of other pathogens. Do you have protomyxzoa? Who knows? I believe I have an apicomplexan protozoan. It could be babesia, it could be something else. Whatever it is, I have learned what knocks it back and what helps it grow. It's a biofilm maker so lipids help it and other pathogens survive. What I have lives in the synovial lining in my joints. Perhaps its protomyxzoa, perhaps it's babesia. Either way, it's not hard to kill, but it is difficult to eradicate.
Posted 8/14/2015 7:03 PM (GMT -5)

rowingmom said...
Buhner also says that some people will have to remain on low dose herbal antimicrobials indefinitely.

I would image those would be the people who, for one reason or another, are unable to regain full immune capability. Causes for this might be improper gut microflora balance (from ingestion of pesticides, insufficient intake of helpful probiotic bacteria from fermented foods), body metal burdens (aluminum, mercury, arsenic etc.) from exogenous sources (vaccines, environmental contamination), lack of essential nutrients, lack of exercise.

This is the reason why CFAO farmers are forced to supplement their animals with low doses of antibiotics. The poor environments they live in and the pesticide laced grains they are fed would inevitably result in poor growth, disease and death without them.

Face it - most of us are CFAO humans.

Beating these infections is not completely about eradicating bacteria/protozoa. They have always been with us and always will be.

Once again, we agree, RowingMom!! I did have a question though - I could easily guess the general meaning of "CFAO farmers", but would you indulge me and explain what this is? Thank you!!
Posted 8/14/2015 8:22 PM (GMT -5)

Georgia Hunter said...
We're really kind of guessing what we're treating.

I've come to that same conclusion....and I think my LLMD hasn't been eager to add to his diagnosis.

Georgia Hunter said...
If you have a positive test, you know you are treating that strain of babesia. But what else do you have? I think we all have quite a bit of other pathogens. Do you have protomyxzoa? Who knows?



No positive test and, yes, the variables are waaayyy too extensive to know what we're fighting, truly.

Georgia Hunter said...
I believe I have an apicomplexan protozoan. It could be babesia, it could be something else. Whatever it is, I have learned what knocks it back and what helps it grow. It's a biofilm maker so lipids help it and other pathogens survive. What I have lives in the synovial lining in my joints. Perhaps its protomyxzoa, perhaps it's babesia.

You amaze me with your detective work.

Georgia Hunter said...
Either way, it's not hard to kill, but it is difficult to eradicate.

That's what I've been gathering from babesia/babesia-like infections. Guess I might as well learn to accept the idea of symbiosis ;)
Posted 8/14/2015 10:01 PM (GMT -5)
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/12/16/gmo-cafo-destroy-communities.aspx

Sorry, CAFO - confined animal feeding operations.
Posted 8/14/2015 10:07 PM (GMT -5)

cd3764 said...
While I'd prefer to not have to treat indefinitely, my biggest fear is not being able to continue treatment, if needed....because I've become senile or something

I hope we won't have to treat indefinitely either, but I will not be giving up our immune support any time soon - very low dose astragalus, rhodiola, American ginseng extract, turmeric, ginger, cordyceps, probiotics
Posted 8/15/2015 11:21 AM (GMT -5)

rowingmom said...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/12/16/gmo-cafo-destroy-communities.aspx

Sorry, CAFO - confined animal feeding operations.

Ah!! Thank you, I figured it had to be something like that!! And, I'm very much against CAFO as well.
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