Herxing with Lyme symptoms on artemisinin

What's up with that? lol

Seriously...

As many of you know, in addition to transitioning to Buhner's Lyme protocol, I'm also titrating his recommended herbs for babesia to see if I've been dealing with an asymptomatic babesia/babesia-like infection that is impeding my healing from Lyme.

After almost 6 months of mild herxing on Cowden, I just wasn't able to shake the mild PNS symptoms I developed on abx (which I'm guessing might be considered an "improvement" from the occasionally numb legs and weird toe sensation I had when diagnosed).

As I titrate the Buhner herbs, I have had a few babesia-like herxes but they've all been symptoms that overlap with Lyme symptoms....that's my LLMD's take on things when I reported air hunger as well as mild chest/head pressure.

Still, I hadn't experienced air hunger nor chest pressure when I was treating for Lyme. Head pressure was a herx I had after starting doxy ala my PCP.

Anyway, as I continue to titrate the babesia (and Lyme) herbs and just now started artemisinin, it seems that my herxes are more "Lyme-like" than anything.

I'm dealing with stuff like a slightly sore throat/flu-y feeling, stinging/stabbing pains, tickly skin areas, cricky neck....along with my usual PNS stuff. Mild nausea is a new one for me.

Liposomal glutathione is the latest addition to my detox protocol and it's helping a LOT.

What do you guys think about all of this? I'm too close to the forest.....

Thanks to all who post!

Wow, DazedPete!!!

I read your thread about your situation with much interest because it seems we came to similar places at similar times.

The extra detail you shared here was wonderful to read - thank you so much for sharing!

I must admit I'd been scared to death of treating babesia only because I didn't treat with babesia pharmas (although my LLMD "counts" the doxy as helping). I'm not scared to death anymore... but am being very cautious with my dose increases ;)

I did treat with some Cowden herbs and it was the mild babesia-like herxes I had on Cowden babesia tinctures that got me thinking. A couple of books later, reading another member's story of asymptomatic babesia and I started my N=1 experiment :)

Your LLMD is much more savvy about these things than mine is. Mine did rattle off the various meds used to treat babesia and bartonella but he seemed incredulous when I mentioned the possibility of asymptomatic infections.

In all honesty, I'm not interested in pharma abx at this point. My symptoms are really mild. I must admit I'm very conscious of the possibility of scary herxes and those don't seem like they'd mix well with the time I spend with my very young grandchildren. I'll go the slow and steady route. I do thank you for your recommendation, though.

I am absolutely thrilled that you are feeling great!!!! You so deserve that after all you've endured!

I hope to be following in your footsteps. Please keep us updated....stories like yours are an inspiration.

Post Edited (cd3764) : 9/8/2015 8:16:54 PM (GMT-6)

Hi Lymie Girl,

Thanks so much for your input!

I'd read Dr. H's writings about Babesia aggravating Lyme symptoms. My situation just hasn't been clear.

I only had two symptoms when I met my LLMD two months after the tick bite - an edema-type feeling in my lower legs and a weird, neurological-type sensation in one toe.

He noted Bells Palsy in me that was so mild neither I nor my family had noticed it until I repeated at home the cheek-puffing he had me do in his office. That's how I got the clinical diagnosis of Lyme that was backed up by Igenex results (CDC positive)

I've come to wonder if the edema-type feeling was babs. It was intriguing to read your comment that a stiff neck can be a classic sign of Lyme with Babesia. I hadn't read that and my LLMD certainly didn't comment to that extent. I know head pressure is a babs symptom and that accompanied my one-day-long stiff neck. Still, my LLMD stood firm with his Lyme Dx.

In his defense, my symptoms haven't been clear-cut because they've been so mild and many of them isolated occurrences. I remember having a hot flash in my LLMD's office when on abx and he speculated babesia. That speculation went out the window once he heard I had a hot flash only one other time. I've begun to wonder if my body has been trying to tell me something ;)

I've decided to reintroduce Houttuynia only because I've had some herxes recently that consist of major stinging in my right foot (usually my symptoms happen mostly on the left side) . Truly, Houttuynia is the only Bartonella herb I'm not currently taking. I can't say that I reacted to it when taking it as part of Cowden....but I was also taking Enula at the time and had a few hot flashes which is what got me thinking about babesia.

I must admit I've decided to hold off on artemisinin until I figure out a few more things including a dosing schedule. (I just don't want to risk a scary herx when I'm caring for my grandchildren).

I've read that people usually herx on day 2 of artemisinin and the herx can last as long as 6 days even if they only took artemisinin for 3 days as part of the pulse schedule.(which is my plan). Was this the case for you?

If you don't mind sharing, how are you working antioxidant intake and artemisinin dosing?

I was counting on using liposomal glutathione to help with herxes but that might be problematic with artemisinin...

Such a learning curve....again lol

Post Edited (cd3764) : 9/10/2015 7:08:24 AM (GMT-6)

Thanks for your input, itsnotjustlyme!

I've only taken liposomal glutathione twice and found it is great for taming herxes.

I'm not inclined to think that my liver is taxed. My GP runs CBC, liver and kidney panels monthly and all is well.

The only drugs I'm taking are thyroid meds....and low doses of herbal antimicrobials. I switched to Buhner's protocols only because I knew I wouldn't have to worry about compatibility issues.

I'm not sure how my situation relates to your comments. Would you kindly clarify?

Thanks for those very useful tidbits of information, Trav! You know I had to Google artemisinin and lyme :) Lo and behold....

It makes sense that we'd "feel" the infection with the highest bacterial load. Of course, our bodies do seem to like surprising us.

I need to suck it up and get going with the artemisinin. There's just no convenient time to herx.

LOL Trav!

I'm actually not herxing today despite the addition of 5 drops Houttuynia this morning. But, thanks for your good wishes because I'm sure I'll need them soon enough lol

I'm holding off on the artemisinin in the hopes of getting a bit more input re antioxidant intake and timing of artemisinin. Once again, I'm reading conflicting reports and getting input on here helps a lot.

Well, it's time for the best medicine ever: my weekly playdate with my 4 m/o grandson ;) Until later tonight....

PI was looking for something and I found this. It seems very on point here. It looks like it was written by Dr. S.

"Babesia infection is becoming more commonly recognized, especially in patients who already have Lyme Disease. It has been published that as many as 66% of Lyme patients show evidence of co-infection with Babesia. It has also been reported that Babesial infections can range in severity from mild, subclinical infection, to fulminant, potentially life-threatening illness...Milder infections are often missed because the symptoms are incorrectly ascribed to Lyme."


http://lymebites.com/page/11/

It looks like Babesia is often overlooked because it is mistaken for Lyme.

The rest of what he says about Babesia is very interesting as well. It is not uncommon to have multiple strains of Babs. So, effectively treating one with a certain med might not treat another, e.g. It might be unresponsive to the same med. Then, you don't get rid of Babs (or heal from Lyme). Kind of mind blowing. Maybe that is why so many people have a hard time healing and fighting Babesia.

He says you can't heal from Lyme without effectively treating Babesia (or another significant co-infection-of course).

I was going nutz trying to find the medical reference for the 66% percent statistic quoted because I want to share that with my LLMD vs. info from a person's blog.

Yes, the blog referenced Dr. B's guidelines which I've read countless times....but never the section on coinfections because neither I nor my LLMD thought I was dealing with them.

Lo and behold....there it was on pg. 23

Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction, Lymie Girl - you're awesome :)

Post Edited (cd3764) : 9/11/2015 1:36:57 PM (GMT-6)

Thanks for your comments, Lymie Girl!

Dr. S seems to think that getting the infection load down until symptom-free isn't enough and the patient is at risk of "crashing" at a later date. This is much like what we read about Lyme that isn't cured with early, aggressive treatment.

His position is a tough one for me if I do indeed have Babesia or a babesia-like infection with virtually no symptoms. We do the best we can with what we have - right?

Better tests would be awesome...as would bodies that tell us what's going on inside lol

Thanks for your good wishes, too. Buhner says if we don't feel any effects from Artemisinin within 7 days of starting, we never will so, I'm hoping my herx on the very first capsule is a sign that it will be useful for me. I'd really like to have some good news to report to my LLMD when I see him next month. I have already had a slight improvement in my PNS issues so I think I'm on the right path - yay!

I'm resuming Artemisinin this afternoon and plan on taking only one capsule/day for this first 3-day round. I'll try 2 caps/day for the next weekend pulse.

I read that Babesia herxes can be worse than Lyme herxes because the parasite is bigger than the Lyme bacteria....and red blood cells are also destroyed when Babesia die. Gotta love it - not.

Are you taking any supportive herbs as you battle Babesia?

It was after reading in Buhner's book about the effects Babesia can have on the liver and spleen that I decided to take Dan Shen.....I'm only up to 3 drops but I remember herxing on it (mildly) when I first started.

I wish you the utmost success in taming your Lyme & Co's beasts!!!

Post Edited (cd3764) : 9/11/2015 1:37:28 PM (GMT-6)

Hindsight is often 20/20 - blech lol

I distinctly remember Traveler's words about people never wishing they did things more quickly. I remember her sharing that she stopped counting at 28 the number of people who told her they wished they did things more slowly.

I am enjoying my 2 young grandchildren immensely (one is 2 and the other, 4 months) and enjoy weekly "playdates" with each of them. I just don't want to lose my time with them because of a bad herx. They are my motivation to do things slowly ;)

Yes, Red Root protects blood cells. Rowingmom explains how very well (I just can't remember the exact terms she used). Red root also increases coagulation and Buhner recommends taking gingko biloba to counteract that.

And, you are correct that Dan Shen helps with white blood cells. It's also antimicrobial so I suggest you approach with caution.

Sida acuta seems to be a wonder herb ;)

I edited my post because I did find the answer....on page 23 :) Yes, the guidelines are awesome. I obviously didn't go back to that section lol

I used Dr. B's supplement recommendations to guide me in my selections and found them very helpful.

Do you have a ragweed allergy? That can cause an adverse reaction to milk thistle. Glad Burdock Root is working for you.

It's clear you have a passion and I'm grateful you're willing to share your knowledge and experiences. Hope I can help you some day but at least you know I'm trying to pay it forward.