Question about the Immune System Vs Treatment

The question I have is a bit abstract. I will do my best to ask it - it has been on my mind for quite some time and I am just trying to grasp the concept.

Person A (my husband) - tested positive for lyme. Had no symptoms. But a few months ago, a few symptoms popped up with him that made me worry - he was pulling his muscles, his asthma acted up out of no where, he was getting headaches, tinnitus, and his joints hurt. Ok, so a few weeks went by and they slowly went away. Now he is totally fine and is training for a 100 mile bike ride in two weeks.

Person B (me) - I had a long list of symptoms, never tested positive, was diagnosed clinically, treated for 8 months, had about 6 months where I was 100% symptom free, then either had a "lyme flare" or "reached my tipping point" where my immune system went a little whacky and a few symptoms returned. I treated those symptoms with proper diet, sleep, and immune boosters. I am back to 100% again.

So, many people would say that my husband should treat for lyme. But here is the question - lets just say he does take lyme herbs for 9 months to a year. He has no symptoms now, and does not have any symptoms a year months from now. Why would it matter? The reason I am asking is this - because if I treated, got my immune system strong enough to keep lyme at bay, would I not be in the same boat as my husband? Who is to say that after he treats for that year that lyme won't flare up again like it did for me?

If anyone who treats lyme gets it under control, and are 100% symptom free, we all know our immune system is responsible for keeping lyme in remission. So if the immune system is already doing that, is it not necessary to treat? Because for anyone who treats, lyme still is never going to be completely irradicated, correct?

Or am I wrong, and if you treat with herbs then you will get the lyme spirochete number down way lower? So for example, in my case, let's just say that hiccup I had was indeed a lyme flare (and not candida as I thought), but I got it under control again. And let's just say for arguement's sake, right now my Spirochete number in my body is 8,000 (totally made up number lol), but my immune system is keeping it from being "active". But if I were to treat with Buhner's herbs, I would get that number down to 3,000.

Totally hypothical, but hopefully I asked the question properly. I just need to re-evaluate my own treatment plan. I am doing great, but what if there are alot of spirochetes hiding, maybe I should treat with Buhner anyway.....that is the main reason why I am asking this. My husband - at the moment, bc he is doing so well, he and I firmly believe he does not need to treat, since he doesn't have any signs of active infection. And I know so many of you encouraged me to treat him a few months back, but he is not an easy case - and is very stubborn. LOL

Thank you all for your responses in advance. I will be posting more threads of this nature - been doing alot of thinking!!!

I wrote this scenerio in a later comment, but incase those who are new to reading this thread don't have time to read all of the comments, I am posting it here as well -

if person A has lyme, but doesn't treat it yet has no symptoms
if person B has lyme and has symptoms, treats lyme, and then 2 years later has no symptoms

is it possible for person A and B to both have lyme flares in the future? if yes, what is the point of treating person A????

Post Edited (Chapelle) : 5/11/2016 10:48:04 AM (GMT-6)

The following article was very recently linked on here and it seems to put a spin on things for asymptomatically- infected people....those who didn't develop symptoms until years after the bite:

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3632773&p=1

What does your LLMD have to say about it all?

1000Daisies said...


Additionally, I find tracking CD57 and C4A to be helpful in knowing when to stop treatment.

Another thing that you may want to consider is the talk about it being transmitted sexually. I think this is commonly overlooked in married couples. That, in itself, is something I'd strongly consider.

Daisies I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. My doctor will be doing follow-up bloodwork as we go along on these tests looking for improvements. I read somewhere that some docs like to see the CD57 near 200 before discontinued treatment.

With regard to the sexually transmitted...I believe that may be how I got infected. My hubby was bitten as a child and never treated. We are thinking that when my immune system became compromised it was just there in waiting or it was at that time transferred. Who knows? So now my question is should I have my children tested? I'm thinking yes. I am going to ask my doctor about it. Granted my kids are 13 and almost 10 and I didn't show any real symptoms until recently.

k07 said...
But then I start thinking and wonder if the small symptoms are normal or lyme symptoms.

I don't think it's normal/healthy to have any symptoms. I never dealt with symptoms until after thyroid disease came into my life in 2007 and keeping my levels optimized keeps me free from the symptoms of that.

IMHO, symptoms are a sign of imbalance in the body.

wow, lots of responses so far - thank you all!

first off, yes, Cd, it is a personal decision, and I am struggling with making one, which is why I posted this thread. The responses have been helpful!

My LLMD firmly recommended that I not treat my husband. I took her advice, but I am still questioning her thoughts. She says if you don't have symptoms, there is no way to gauge what you are treating, if you have an coinfections (bc most of this is diagnosed clinically), or how long to treat for. She is the one who says that if you do not have any symptoms, then the immune system is keeping things under control. She has helped me understand the difference btwn being sick vs an over-responsive immune system, bc it can be tricky when you are near the end of treatment. This is another thread I plan to discuss when this one is finished.

bluelyme - yes, we had decided on doing herbs, but then we didn't address it right away and here we are again. I could kick myself for not starting him on it bc now I feel like I have to convince him all over again.

daisies - yes, you are right, and alzheimers does scare him, and this was one of the reasons why he was considering treatment.
so sorry to hear about your kids though, ugh, that must have been so difficult to endure - my kids had it too, but with very minimal symptoms. I still worry if they were treated for long enough. I am currently treating my oldest again but with buhner this time (antibiotics and al complex the first time). I am probably going to do the same with my younger two, after I do all of this thinking!! LOL

CD57 is not known to be a very reliable marker. My Cd57 was lower when I finished treatment than it was when I started treatment. Compliment c4a is good, but it is nonspecific. issues like candida can cause your compliment c4a level to be high - and alot of people have candida but do not know it.

yes, I know all about the sexual transmission, but we use protection, bc I have had several miscarriages, the last of which sent me to the ER - so I cannot take any chances of getting pregnant again for that reason. Thank you for all of your input, Daisies'!!

krimpet - if you do get your kids tested, I would only go thru igenex. That is a worrisome thought, but hopefully you are incorrect!!!

absolutely cd, "symptoms are a sign of imbalance in the body."

so i still dont have my question "directly" answered LOL - here is a better way of asking -

if person A has lyme, but doesn't treat it yet has no symptoms
if person B has lyme and has symptoms, treats lyme, and then 2 years later has no symptoms

is it possible for person A and B to both have lyme flares in the future? if yes, what is the point of treating person A????

It would be impossible for me to tell if my kids were in remission or not due to their lack of symptoms. The only thing I could rely on to tell me would be if we had an accurate test. If you don't have symptoms and we don't have a good test, then there's no way to tell. And if someone is not sick, they really don't feel like taking medicine!

Also, when my husband and kids recently went on antibiotics none of them herxed or had any changes what so ever. That makes me question treatment.

The problem with treating based on symptoms is that I suspect that it's possible for some people to have a heavy Borrelia load and remain asymptomatic while others can get really sick really quickly as soon as they are bit despite having a relatively low load.

The question is - are the asymptomatic people really healthy? I knew this couple who were my parents age. The woman came down with severe CFS and has been mostly bedridden for 20 years with multiple chronic infections including Lyme. The husband, who was always considered healthy, came down suddenly with ALS a few years ago and died. Given what we here know about these chronic infections he probably had a latent infection that was asymptomatic, until it wasn't.

So remaining asymptomatic could mean that the person's immune system has effectively suppressed Borrelia, or it could mean they are simply a ticking bomb waiting to go off. The current state of medical testing can't differentiate between these cases.

I think the only reliable test we have at the moment is exposing the body to a known frequency that kills only Borrelia. If someone has active Borrelia they'll herx and this imho is currently the only method available for determining what their true state of health is.

Actually, there is a very accurate test - a DNA probe - that was developed by Dr. Alan MacDonald, but he can't afford to produce a ton of these probes on his own, so he is seeking funding. His desire is to place one of these DNA beacons in every Dr's office, but he can't get funding for this through the 'normal' channels.

/www.dropbox.com/s/tjgrlfyxg4kg8e6/Validation%20BeaconDNA.pdf?dl=0


/spirodementia.wordpress.com/drexel-university-team-duplicate-dr-alan-macdonalds-findings-of-bacterial-biofilms-in-alzheimers-plaques/

www.lyme-disease-research-database.com/alan-macdonald-transcription.html

Traveller - he's using the probe on brain plaque collected during autopsies. Most of us would probably prefer not to wait that long for test results!

You could probably use this method on a biopsy from a living person, but it would still be hit or miss depending on whether or you happened to collect some Borrelia during the biopsy.

I would love access to the DNA probe test. Is there any doctor in the U.S. using them that one could go to?

k07 said...
I would love access to the DNA probe test. Is there any doctor in the U.S. using them that one could go to?

No, not yet unfortunately. This would blow the doors off of the CDC's position, so the gov't will likely continue to refuse to help fund it.

Many people test positive for lyme but don't have lyme "disease" because their body is doing what is should do naturally which is killing the lyme bacteria and naturally detoxing.

I personally don't believe in treating lyme if a person does not show any symptoms.

Over a year ago I listened to an interview hosted by Lyme Light Radio with Katina Makris (author of Out of the Woods) and Dr. Jernigan and if I remember correctly they both tested positive for lyme but did not have lyme disease (huge difference). If I can find the interview I will post it as I found it informative and educational.

Denise

thanks for your input denise, and I remained confused. LOL