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Artesunate and Rifampin - anyone take them concurrently

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Posted 12/14/2016 8:54 PM (GMT -5)
My LLND sent a bottle - instructions are take 7 days on and 7 days off. 1 pill twice daily.

I am also to continue with the Rifampin. 600 mg once daily.

1) I know that Artemisinin was on the Cytochrome P450 list...so wouldn't Artesunate - since it comes from the same source: Artemisia?

2) Why 7 on and 7 off. I thought it was just Artemisinin that your intestines could develop an enzyme that could render it useless?

3) I am thinking I should wait and do the Artesunate with the Mepron...or would that be too much to handle?
Posted 12/14/2016 9:02 PM (GMT -5)
Are you asking if the Artesunate should join the Mepron on the counter or 'fridge where you just look at them? Poor Girlie! :( If this was anyone else I would suggested trying one once. If you get the herx from hell, rethink it.

Would it help you to at least put a 12 hour gap between the Rif and the Artemisinin? Try just one day?

Or does your LLND believe you are already taking the Mepron?


I think we need a reminder what the LLND suggested altogether.


You mods and I think PeteZ 'held my hand' through my Braggs ACV herx. Don't forget we can stay right with you through this group (faster than email), while you try this new stuff.

Post Edited (julymorning) : 12/14/2016 7:05:09 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/14/2016 9:44 PM (GMT -5)
bumping
Posted 12/14/2016 10:45 PM (GMT -5)

julymorning said...
Are you asking if the Artesunate should join the Mepron on the counter or 'fridge where you just look at them? Poor Girlie! :( If this was anyone else I would suggested trying one once. If you get the herx from hell, rethink it.

Would it help you to at least put a 12 hour gap between the Rif and the Artemisinin? Try just one day?

Or does your LLND believe you are already taking the Mepron?


I think we need a reminder what the LLND suggested altogether.


You mods and I think PeteZ 'held my hand' through my Braggs ACV herx. Don't forget we can stay right with you through this group (faster than email), while you try this new stuff.

LOL. Julymorning!

The LLND doesn't know I have a bottle of Mepron to try.

He prescribed the Rifampin with minocycline and the Artesunate.

He does know about the LDI that I decided not to do.

I just don't want to diminish the effects of the Rifampin. Or make it stronger - as I'm taking both caps at once now and my pee is dark orange all day - right up to bedtime...so it's staying in my system a long time ...already.
Posted 12/14/2016 11:16 PM (GMT -5)
I think your goal is right now to find out if there is a difference in the two forms, if there is one, or if it's a different word because of who makes it.

If there is no difference, then you have the Cytochrome P450 to consider..and If that is the case, I see no harm in calling to ask about your concerns.


Do you think you would have less herx issues if the Artesunate DID change the potency of the rif downward?

Because I am sure you don't want it changed upward.
Posted 12/14/2016 11:37 PM (GMT -5)
I do know it's different, not just someone else who makes it.

Artesunate is supposed to be stronger than Artemisinin...

But that's all I know...

I'm thinking they should not be taken together.
Posted 12/14/2016 11:40 PM (GMT -5)
Did you ever finish the mino?


Have you tried any of the other herbs that are supportive, other than the LD1 that you're getting?

What about Japanese knotweed? You've talked about pain....I'm having great success with this one.
Posted 12/15/2016 2:05 AM (GMT -5)
I did Buhner Bart herbs (including JK) for many months - I'd have to check how long - I'm thinking a year. Around the time I tried the CBD oil, I pared down my herbs...I was just taking too many things at the same time.
Now i'm just doing some support herbs - Hawthorn, Kudzu, Greater Celandine.

I'm still on the minocycline - pairing it with the Rifampin.

Some of the 'things' I've tried for pain: Curcumin, Boswelia, Omegas, LDN, cbd oil, capsaicin, ......

I may add the Japanese knotweed back in.
Posted 12/15/2016 10:34 AM (GMT -5)
I'm taking dihydroartemisinin and Rifampin at the same time.
I still got a herx when I started the dihydroartemisinin, so I don't think the Rifampin is affecting it.

Whether the interaction works the other way around I'm not sure, but I was on Rifampin for several months without any change so I don't think it mattered either way.

I don't know how much activity artesunate has against Bart, but I suppose there must be some for your doctor to recommend it.

I wouldn't go too crazy worrying about the interaction. You can take the artesunate first if you like, because it has an incredibly short half-life: it's pretty much completely gone after 2-3 hours I think it was. You could take the artesunate when you wake up, then take your daily dose of Rifampin at noon, then do artesunate again at 4 and 10. That would work well.

If it were me, I'd add in the art, and judge how you feel from there. If you feel terrible, then I think you're going to have a fun time when you try your Mepron experiment eventually :p
Posted 12/15/2016 2:00 PM (GMT -5)
Mustard Seed - I'm currently feeling something from the Rif/Mino (I think it's the Rif) - so not sure if I should add anything now...maybe wait a week or so. (lol - right before xmas)

But, that is a great idea...now that I'm taking Rifampin only once a day...much more 'room' for adding in the Artesunate.

I am supposed to do twice daily...of the Art. So, I will do the Art first thing, as you suggested...wait a couple hours and do the mino and Rifampin.

I should be able to take the Art again with the minocycline an hour before dinner.


My LLND said I could take the Artesunate with or without food...sound right?

...and okay close to the minocycline?

So, you think it should have been 3X daily (artesunate)

...and wouldn't it be better to wait until I do Mepron...so that I'm not treating Babs - with mono therapy?
Posted 12/15/2016 2:04 PM (GMT -5)
Mino is not p450 drug, so it should be fine I think
Posted 12/15/2016 2:33 PM (GMT -5)

blueberrymuffin said...
Mino is not p450 drug, so it should be fine I think

I think so, too, BBM
Posted 12/15/2016 2:43 PM (GMT -5)
I sense you're also a little worried about what kind of herx you might experience, and since you're not feeling your best right now, I'd be slow to take the plunge too.

Best advise, be diligent with the major lymphatic detox, and stay away from stressing yourself.
Posted 12/15/2016 2:45 PM (GMT -5)

julymorning said...
I sense you're also a little worried about what kind of herx you might experience, and since you're not feeling your best right now, I'd be slow to take the plunge too.

Best advise, be diligent with the major lymphatic detox, and stay away from stressing yourself.


LOL - stress is inevitable right now - xmas coming...and I'm slower than slow...so way behind my 'schedule'.

...and baby it's cold outside.

The cold makes me hurt.
Posted 12/15/2016 4:57 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
Mustard Seed - I'm currently feeling something from the Rif/Mino (I think it's the Rif) - so not sure if I should add anything now...maybe wait a week or so. (lol - right before xmas)

But, that is a great idea...now that I'm taking Rifampin only once a day...much more 'room' for adding in the Artesunate.

I am supposed to do twice daily...of the Art. So, I will do the Art first thing, as you suggested...wait a couple hours and do the mino and Rifampin.

I should be able to take the Art again with the minocycline an hour before dinner.


My LLND said I could take the Artesunate with or without food...sound right?

...and okay close to the minocycline?

So, you think it should have been 3X daily (artesunate)

...and wouldn't it be better to wait until I do Mepron...so that I'm not treating Babs - with mono therapy?

If your doctor said to do it twice a day, then do it twice. I do it three times a day because that's what Zhang recommends and I'm using his brand.

Yup with or without food is fine. I read a study (I don't have the link) that it made no difference with or without food. When given the option, I always prefer without food. I feel like it gives your body a better change to absorb it, unless stated otherwise (Mepron, Alinia, etc.)

I also like to separate the herbs out from the antibiotics, but I don't have any reason or proof that it's more effective like this. Minocycline doesn't seem to react with very much, so I think it'd be fine.

As for the Mepron mono-therapy, I thought you were going to do it with Zithromax? That in itself should prevent resistance. Adding Art to that would be a smart idea though (or Bactrim, Alinia), not so much for resistance but more for protozoan killing power!

Maybe you can get another prescription for the artesunate after the current one runs out?
Posted 12/15/2016 5:10 PM (GMT -5)
sheesh! It's complicated...or maybe I'm complicated....or make everything complicated.

I drive my husband crazy with questions...

I don't have a lot of zithro - and I was going to ask my LLND for more to go with the Rifampin...and forgot...and asked for more Minocycline!

But I do have some zithro and some biaxin leftover...so I could do the Mepron with them (separately of course).

LLND isn't privy to the Mepron I will be trying.

I thought it was still better to do two anti-malarials (Mepron and Artesunate - eg.) together with an antibiotic.

But, I should be receiving some Artemisinin in the mail as well.

So, if I do the Artesunate with Rif...and run out ....down the road... I can do the Artemisinin with the Mepron and a macrolide.


...OR will the Artemisinin be 'useless' after the big gun Artesunate?

...k - everyone confused? Sorry.
Posted 12/15/2016 5:35 PM (GMT -5)
I wouldn't say it'd be useless.

Potentially less effective, but who knows, maybe you won't be able to handle the artesunate and want to use artemisinin instead at that point.
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