B vitamins, Folate vs folic acid - interesting info from NOW foods

Hi folks!

Sorry it's been such a long time! Someone referred to me as a "consummate caretaker" awhile back based upon what was going on in my life at the time. It's still the same and perhaps more so. Thus, my continued absence from the forum - sorry.

Thankfully, my healing continues on deeper levels...and I doubt a healthy person would even question my daily experiences.

I never forget you guys and that's why I'm posting right now.

All of that said, I've been looking to save money on supplements (my wallet is so very sore). I started to research nutritional yeast thanks to a recent thread by PeteZa.

I found that many of the nutritional yeast products list "folic acid" as an ingredient.

Since I am hetero for the C677T MTHFR mutation, I've been taking folate (vs folic acid) ever since I learned about the mutation. I've also been taking methylated B vitamins.

Anyway, I emailed NOW Foods to question their nutrition fact listing for their nutritional yeast - one of the listings is "folate (folic acid)".

I found their response quite intriguing....and I copy and paste it here:

" Federal Nutrition Labeling regulations require listing foods fortified with folic acid in the manner listed on labels. Our supplier (Red Star) adds synthetic folic acid to the formula.

Should you require a more detailed explanation regarding folic acid safety see below:

Folic acid is synthetic. But, whether you take food folate or folic acid, the body synthesizes a third, active form from it. Folic acid is twice as bioavailable and twice as effective at raising the body's level of that active form than food folate (per the National Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board). The notorious lack of bioavailability of vitamins from food matrices, and the need to convert them to the body's preferred forms, is why the well-absorbed isolated form is used in food fortification and supplements. Here is some additional information if interested:

The MHTFR issue is not directly related to the form of folate taken since it is actually referring to the internal production of a weaker version of the enzyme from any form of folate due to the genetic issue. Those who use this to imply that folic acid is ineffective are not reading the science carefully. The safety and public health benefits of folic acid cover decades of rigorous research and are indisputable. /ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/


Dietary folates, including methylfolates, are converted to folic acid during digestion, so folic acid is the usual form after digestion (even for most methylfolate supplements) until the body re-methylates it:

Folates only work in the body as the active methylated form. If one doesn’t have high homocysteine levels or anemia, then by definition they have adequate conversion to methylfolate AND production of sufficient MHTFR enzymes even if the enzymes are weaker than normal.

Theoretical manipulations of data to suggest that folic acid is harmful defy not only the evidence of public health studies but the extensive literature reviews utilized to establish ULs and safety. It would be impossible to address every sensational and theoretical issue. Much of what we hear about methylfolates is marketing-driven by pharmaceutical companies holding patents on those forms, using selective data. Their not-unbiased trainings have influenced a number of doctors, with buy-in from those few supplement companies who have licensed their products and also have a vested interest in presenting incomplete data to support their product sales.

Folic acid “is reduced, within the cell, to the metabolically active THF form.” Measuring intestinal conversion is not necessarily the whole story. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20608755


Folic acid has a robust safety record as a safe, non-toxic dose and higher levels are more likely to support good health if a person has the genetic issue (SNPs) where their MTHTFR enzyme is weaker than usual. This is because the extra folic acid also converts into 5-MHTF, the precursor of MHTFR, and thus creates an appropriately larger pool of the enzyme to allow proper detoxification of homocysteine, etc. even with weaker enzymes being produced. ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/MTHFR


“Regardless of whether you have an MTHFR mutation in both genes or not, the treatment for elevated homocysteine is the same—dietary intervention and supplementation with folic acid and vitamins B6 and B12. The amount of each of these supplements should be adjusted on the basis of the degree of homocysteine elevation, not your genetic status. If you have mutations in both MTHFR genes but have normal homocysteine levels, you do not need to be on folic acid or vitamin B6 or B12 therapy." circ.ahajournals.org/content/111/19/e289.full


Here are the only proven benefits of methylfolate over folic acid:

“Studies comparing L-5-methyl-THF and folic acid have found that the two compounds have comparable physiological activity, bioavailability and absorption at equimolar doses. Bioavailability studies have provided strong evidence that L-5-methyl-THF is at least as effective as folic acid in improving folate status, as measured by blood concentrations of folate and by functional indicators of folate status, such as plasma homocysteine. Intake of L-5-methyl-THF may have advantages over intake of folic acid. First, the potential for masking the haematological symptoms of vitamin B(12) deficiency may be reduced with L-5-methyl-THF. Second, L-5-methyl-THF may be associated with a reduced interaction with drugs that inhibit dihydrofolate reductase.” www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20608755


Jim G.
NOW Product Information Dept.

Information in this response refers to products labeled for sale in the U.S.A. unless otherwise indicated."


Comments always welcome ;)

Thanks for your post, AM!

I submitted my question through their site and was thrilled to get such an informative response (within hours!!).

I've never had my B6 tested but am getting 25mg per day as part of the methylated B complex I take.

I was planning on at least cutting back certain supplements from daily to maybe M-W-F. While my doctor never tested my B6 level, I convinced her to test my homocysteine level and it was fine. My B12 level has been easily double the high end of the normal range but my doctor was never concerned.

Based upon NOW's response, I think I'm going to stop all B vitamin supplementation and see how things go.

That's unless someone has evidence to the contrary of what NOW shared (let the insanity and analysis/paralysis begin lol)

Rikky1 said...
my LLMD said you can get too much of one B vitamin (can't remember which) and it can cause symptoms similar to lyme/co-s. i'm taking a B-complex only 3 days a week now.

That is correct and it's vitamin B6.

Vitamin B6 toxicity and cause stuff like numbness and tingling.

Good idea about the B-complex frequency, Rikky1 - that's what I'm starting next with the intention of a slow taper off if things are going well.

Interesting CD, and I thank you for the information!!

Always something new to learn......

I found the homocysteine aspect to be quite interesting because I asked my internist to check my level (first time in my life). I'd read about elevated levels being a marker for inflammation. Thank goodness it was normal.

I've never had any signs/symptoms of B vitamin deficiencies and only started supplementing after reading LLMD books lol

The Buhner-recommended herbalist told me he preferred I get my vitamins from food and I'm finally exploring that aspect because I realized there's a good chance I have my bases covered.

I was so paranoid when I first knew I had Lyme and my LLMD left me on my own in regards to supplements (knowing I was following Dr. Burrascano's recommendations, etc.) I took almost everything on the list.

While my symptoms were amped up a bit yesterday (most likely caused by multiple angles of family stress + traffic headaches), they are much better than they had been before - I'm actually having one of my best days in regards to symptoms.

I didn't take my B vitamins the past two days as part of my supplement reduction plan.

How sweet it would be if me ditching the 25mg methyl B6 in the B complex I take brings me to 100%. Yes, that would mean I could then add another 20/20 hindsight moment to my extensive list.

Krimpet - I love your January words of encouragement!!! I've tried to put some UMPH in my life but often wound up with a lot of ARGH's lol

I also love Krimpet's words -- UMPH all the way!!!

IMO, their response is a bunch of crap. That does not read right to me. I'll see what I can find.

Everything I've read on the subject of folinic acid says to me to not use it. Seems like more denial, like we constantly see about chronic Lyme.....

I'm not saying that we all need all the vitamins we can get, but to simply deny that anyone receives any benefit from being careful to use a 'natural form' of vitamin - one the body doesn't need to convert, or convert as much, seems careless.

The reason I'm so doubtful is because my doc didn't think it was a big deal for me to get methylcobalamin (methyl B-12) when I needed to do injections. So I ended up with compounded cyanocobalamin. After each injection and within about an hour, I had to lay down for anywhere from one to two hours and sleep - no matter what time of day I gave myself an injection. This is quite odd for someone who simply couldn't nap during the day previously.

As soon as I stopped the cyano -B12, I quite needing that 'nap' in the middle of the day. My thoughts on it were that it simply took so much energy for my body to convert it over, I had no energy left over to even stay awake, as my naps were not voluntary.

I'd bet Now Foods would be just as defensive with their B-12 information if I wrote in to ask about that too. Their bottom line is NOT the health of the people, but in making money.

Traveler said...
Everything I've read on the subject of folinic acid says to me to not use it.

Me, too

Traveler said...
I'm not saying that we all need all the vitamins we can get, but to simply deny that anyone receives any benefit from being careful to use a 'natural form' of vitamin - one the body doesn't need to convert, or convert as much, seems careless.

Well, I can tell you this much: thyroid guru Elaine Moore says there's not much research on methylated B's (which doesn't mean anything as we know). And, I know there have been comments on here about over-supplementing causing over-methylation.

I'd love to know if it's true that a healthy homocysteine level means no need for B vitamin supplementation.

Buhner-recommended herbalist Tim Scott wanted me to stop all supplementation and get my nutrients from food but I didn't take his advice at first.

I know that, at the minimum, I want to continue with my 4000IU Vit D that keeps my level between 50-70 (latest-greatest recommendation lol)....as well as Magnesium because my RBC level could be better and Mg helps me fall asleep easily. I also want to continue with my omega oil because I don't eat fish.

Hubby and I spend over $200/month on the other, expensive supplements we are now taking (I take the most). We really need to trim that now that our food bill is higher since we are buying all of our food in organic form as well as most meat grass-fed...and we might just be getting what we need from our diets.

Keep those links coming, everyone!

May 2017 be a year of good health for us all!!

Thanks for the links, Trav!

I actually read them awhile back and that's why I've been supplementing with a methylated B complex, methyl B12 and chose a multi that includes 400mcg of methylfolate.

My LLMD released me in Oct 2015 and my internist goes just so far with the bloodwork she runs. Thus, I am often on my own with these types of thinigs.

All I know is that my homocysteine level is normal, my B12 is near 1800 (very much over-range)....and I'm wondering if I even need to be supplementing.

I'd love to know if a normal homocysteine level truly means I don't need B vitamin/folate supplementation as NOW's research-sharing indicates.

I find it intriguing that my transient light twitches have improved quite a bit these past days that I didn't take any methyl B's/folate except what's in 1/2 of the multi dose I opted to take.

The twitches might have been related to the 31mg methyl B6 I was getting between the two supplements (Vit B6 toxicity that hasn't been verified since my internist looks at me like I have two heads when I ask for certain tests lol)

Hope someone is able to fill in the blanks on this stuff.

And, if anyone is aware of a nutritional yeast without folic acid, I'd really appreciate a link ;)

Traveler said...
A fast Google search turned up these two nutritional yeast products without folinic acid - but I don't use them, so I don't know how good they may or may not be.

/www.amazon.com/Dr-Fuhrmans-Nutritional-Yeast-113g/dp/B00FHYXYSE


/www.amazon.com/Sari-Foods-Natural-Non-Fortified-Nutritional/dp/B00PJ3IPMI

Thanks Trav!!

It's weird that Dr. Fuhrmans doesn't list any B vitamins in the nutrient label yet Sari Foods has an extensive listing.

I know that B's and a complete amino acid profile are intrinsic to nutritional yeast and that's why the product appealed to me.

I also know that nutritional yeast is created from sugar and only a non-GMO (preferably organic as well) product is what I would choose.

Traveler said...
And a word on the high B-12 levels as I have done a bit of reading on it. Sometimes this occurs when the cells aren't absorbing the B-12 properly, so it's in excess in the blood.

And this conversation may be helpful:
mthfr.net/forums/topic/mthfr-with-elevated-b12-and-folate/

I'd wondered about that as well but know that Elaine Moore has said not enough research has been done on the topic. (I hate these contradictions lol)

At this juncture, I'm really leaning towards stopping all B vitamin/folate supplementation and switch to daily nutritional yeast intake (non-GMO) as an attempt to get my vitamins via food per the advice of Tim Scott.

At best, I'll be able to get my internist to check my B12 level.

I find "Matthew's" comment on the link quite intriguing:

"Looking at your Homocysteine levels can be used as an indicator for your supplementation."

And, it's that indicator I'm curious about lol

Here are a few links on the topic that support my initial thoughts.

www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v62/n6/abs/1602778a.html

This study about neural tube defects has some interesting information. The quotes below are from different studies utilized by this paper.

/www.degruyter.com/view/j/jpme.2013.41.issue-5/jpm-2012-0256/jpm-2012-0256.xml

"The DHFR in human liver-cell homogenates shows a wide range of activity between individual samples , suggesting large differences in an individual’s ability to reduce FA. A limited ability of the mutated enzyme to reduce FA (at high FA intake ≥500 μg/day) caused higher unmetabolized FA in blood [62]"

"Accordingly, (6S)-5-methylTHF (416 μg/day) can improve or maintain RBC folate concentrations to a significantly greater extent than FA."

"The mean plasma folate concentrations declined slightly over 16 weeks in the FA group [55]. (6S)-5-MethylTHF seemed to be slightly better than FA in maintaining RBC and plasma folate after delivery."

"The estimate of the dose-response relationship showed that the association between folate status biomarkers and 5-methylTHF intake was stronger than for FA intake, suggesting that 5-methylTHF may be more effective in improving folate biomarkers."

Food folate Bioavailability affected by food matrix, food preparation, and co-nutrients; bioavailability
affected by hydrolyzation of the polyglutamate residues; storage, washing, and cooking
destroy the vitamin; normal B12 and B6 status is required for optimal utilization. Advantages:
Natural form; no upper tolerable limit It does not mask vitamin B12 deficiency.

5-MethylTHF More expensive than FA; for optimal utilization and metabolism, 5-methylTHF supplementation
should be accompanied by normal B12 and B6 status; 5-methylTHF is currently used in some
pregnancy-related supplements. Advantages: High bioavailability; main folate form in blood
(serum or RBC) and cord serum; no need to be activated; it can directly enter the folate
cycle; no upper tolerable limit in US dietary reference intakes ; it does not mask vitamin B12
deficiency

Folic acid 1. Causes unmetabolized FA in blood at doses >200 μg/day, Low costs, heat insensitive
2. FA is itself not active, but must be metabolized through several steps in order to enter the
folate cycle.
3. FA may be less reduced in carriers of the DHFR (19 bp del/del) polymorphism and can appear
unmetabolized in blood.
4. Upper tolerable limit is 1 mg/day
5. Controversial role of unmetabolized vitamin in plasma
6. Higher doses of FA can mask vitamin B12 deficiency and delay its diagnosis by correcting
hematological signs.
7. Controversy about the roles of chronic high intake in cancer promotion
8. For optimal metabolism, FA supplementation should be accompanied by normal B12 and B6
status.
Advantages: Low cost, heat insensitive.

/www.degruyter.com/view/j/cclm.2013.51.issue-8/cclm-2012-0694/cclm-2012-0694.xml

ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/1/216.short

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1476-5381.2009.00492.x/full

www.pnas.org/content/106/36/15424.short

/www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nutrition-research-reviews/article/div-classtitlebioavailability-and-bioefficacy-of-folate-and-folic-acid-in-mandiv/04005B5EF268F9C011BA69541A59E8BB

"In particular circumstances host-related factors, such as gastrointestinal illness and pH of the jejunum, can influence bioavailability." Isn't that interesting.....