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2 questions: Immune system, weight loss

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Posted 2/4/2017 3:53 PM (GMT -5)
Hi folks,
I've got another 2 questionṣ.

1. When people say their immune system is shot or otherwise dysfunctional, what do they mean? How is this quantified in their blood work?

My last cbc and metabolic panel 2 weeks ago came out smack in the middle of the reference range for everything. CRP and ANA were also normal. Would that be considered immuno-competent?

2. I've lost 20lbs since I got sick with tbi in spite of eating as much or more than I did before. People say I look drawn and my clothes don't fit so well anymore. I'm 5'-10" and have dropped from 165 to 145 lbs so it wasn't like I was fat, though I did weigh 145 in my late teens and mid 20's. Granted, I've cut out breads, sugar, and processed foods but still eat amaranth, quinoa, yams, and winter squash. Should I be doing something else to gain back my weight? Or will that just spontaneously happen as I recover? A few years ago when I was cycling a lot, I wanted to drop 10lbs and tried paleo for a month and didn't lose an ounce.

Best Regards,
BJD
Posted 2/4/2017 3:58 PM (GMT -5)
One of the things that happens when our immune system isn't functioning as it should, or it can actually be fooled by bacterial organisms disguising/hiding themselves, is that the white cells that normally signal the cells that attack invaders, aren't seeing anything to respond to which is why so many blood tests for Lyme come back either negative or not enough to make a determination one way or the other.

So not only does that affect our tests, but then the bacteria is pretty much free to do it's damage unencumbered by our body's natural attack system.


I'll let others reply to the weight loss issue. Some of it has to do with muscle tissue loss from the bacteria eating/destroying it. And yes, it will come back once you're getting better.
Posted 2/4/2017 4:03 PM (GMT -5)
I think CRP is a test for inflammation. Mine is normal too - both times I tested...but i'm pretty sure I have inflammation.

ANA - is autoimmune antibodies....one of the tests for autoimmune diseases.

I lost 14 lbs in a matter of weeks when I first got sick...and I was eating the same way...i didn't know I had lyme disease. (april/may 2013) I lost some fat and muscle. (I wasn't overweight by any means)
I did have undigested food in the toilet...so that may have contributed.

I started treatment in summer of 2014 and by December, I had gained 4 pounds ...and I have now gained it all back...and my muscles are coming back, too.
Posted 2/4/2017 4:24 PM (GMT -5)
I lost 20 #...and had real site specific muscle wasting i attribute to batonella and lower motor neuron disfuntion....

to answer your first question ...test your igg or they have a vaccine challenge for ivig ..or you can do biopsy to see neuropathy
Posted 2/4/2017 5:32 PM (GMT -5)
Immune system is compromised because of the bacteria, they supress immune system and it cannot fight - not only against bacteria, but viruses, yeast, etc.
I lost 25lbs. I have Lyme in my gut and I have severe issues with the eating and digestion.
Posted 2/4/2017 6:46 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks all. It's strange. My appetite is fine, eliminating normally. I do have some gastritis pain and intermittent esophageal pain which seems to be resolving. I guess it must have altered my metabolism somehow. Going for upper gi and colonoscopy Monday. Fun times ahead 😨
Posted 2/4/2017 7:09 PM (GMT -5)
Scopes are kinda useless...it did show hiatial hernia from h pylori...look into parasite testing ..i had giardia and ascaris from mexico trip many years ago
Posted 2/4/2017 8:38 PM (GMT -5)

bluelyme said...
Scopes are kinda useless...it did show hiatial hernia from h pylori...look into parasite testing ..i had giardia and ascaris from mexico trip many years ago

My pcp ordered this before I got the tbi dx. So I'll go through with it. I'm 61 y/o and my last colonoscopy was 11 years ago and they say get it done every 10 yrs after 50. Never had an upper gi before. I tested negative on the h pylori breath test a few weeks back. I may have a hiatal hernia. It hurts just under my rib cage and under my sternum especially when I drink hot liquids. Much as I hate to take pharmaceuticals for palliative reasons, I've been taking Zantac and gas-x for the past month and that has quieted down the symptoms significantly. I just started zinc-carnosine so hopefully that and the dgl will allow me to quit the Zantac.

Wouldn't parasites be obvious? I don't have diarrhea but once maybe every couple of months or more and it never persists longer than a single trip to the wc. Prior to getting sick in September 2016, I didn't have any ongoing gi complaints.

Best,
BJD

Post Edited (Black Jack Davey) : 2/4/2017 6:41:18 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/2/2017 5:26 PM (GMT -5)

bluelyme said...
I lost 20 #...and had real site specific muscle wasting i attribute to batonella and lower motor neuron disfuntion....


Bluelyme, I've got some site specific muscle wasting as well, my dominant right quad and my right vocal cord. Did that wasting resolve with treatment?

Ive got overall weight loss as well. It's very puzzling as to WHY I've lost 20# in spite of good nutrition and elimination. I wonder, could it be the body's wisdom? Shedding fat that harbors toxins? Or? I've been trying some daily pea protein shakes to see if that'll help me gain weight back but after almost 2 weeks, nuttin.
Best Regards,
David
Posted 3/2/2017 5:32 PM (GMT -5)
BJD - Symptoms hit me April, 2013. By June of same year I had lost about 14 lbs. and I wasn't heavy.
So 138 down to 124.
My whole body lost muscle.
But in particular my upper left side of my body had the most atrophy.
and then I got frozen shoulder (combination of infection, guarding and disuse)

Within several months of treatment starting, the weight came back...but I am still working on the muscle atrophy.
I'm well over two years treatment now.
Pushing through physiotherapy...and exercising almost daily...
Posted 3/2/2017 5:36 PM (GMT -5)
Yes it should eventually come back. I just started gaining some weight, not much, but some. I loss +30 lbs. I loss the weight during 2014 and 2015, but had no idea why.
Posted 3/2/2017 5:47 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
BJD - Symptoms hit me April, 2013. By June of same year I had lost about 14 lbs. and I wasn't heavy.
So 138 down to 124.
My whole body lost muscle.
But in particular my upper left side of my body had the most atrophy.
and then I got frozen shoulder (combination of infection, guarding and disuse)

Within several months of treatment starting, the weight came back...but I am still working on the muscle atrophy.
I'm well over two years treatment now.
Pushing through physiotherapy...and exercising almost daily...


Yikes those frozen shoulders are excruciating. I've had 2 if them. One in 2007, other in 2011 after arthroscopic shoulder surgery in 2011. The physio therapy was grueling but at least I bonded with my other each time as it was a long haul.
I soooooo wish I were well enough to resume fitness training. I've lost all this weight, once my energy and stamina return, I will rebuild my body and spirit, BJD 2.0 coming soon.
I sure hope I can tolerate these buhner herbs.
Posted 3/2/2017 5:53 PM (GMT -5)
My frozen shoulder has developed into nerve pain...and it's difficult distinguishing how much is infection...and how much is the nerves just not 'sliding' and needing physio...

I have had various 'stages' of pain...It actually got better for awhile...and then worse again...

I can't say I'm 'fitness' training...lol. I'm just doing time on my Elliptical and then exercises with light weights, therabands,...etc.

I have a goal of getting on my mountain bike this spring/summer. Told my husband as long as it's a flat circuit..I'm game. No hills for me yet.

I've accepted the fact that I probably won't play tennis again. It was my favorite sport.

BJD - Were your frozen shoulders from the infections?
Posted 3/2/2017 6:19 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
My frozen shoulder has developed into nerve pain...and it's difficult distinguishing how much is infection...and how much is the nerves just not 'sliding' and needing physio...

I have had various 'stages' of pain...It actually got better for awhile...and then worse again...

I can't say I'm 'fitness' training...lol. I'm just doing time on my Elliptical and then exercises with light weights, therabands,...etc.

I have a goal of getting on my mountain bike this spring/summer. Told my husband as long as it's a flat circuit..I'm game. No hills for me yet.

I've accepted the fact that I probably won't play tennis again. It was my favorite sport.

BJD - Were your frozen shoulders from the infections?


I don't know if my frozen shoulders were from Lyme and Co. I suppose it's possible.
Wouldn't lowish igg #s for bab and Bart indicate a more recent infection? Not necessarily for Bb, but it seems bartonella and babesia are dominant and sure things.
Bb, was indeterminate on igenex and my symptoms are more brain and constitutional in nature.

Other than aches and pains and some episodic fall season insomnia, I was full of vitality til this knocked me down last September. I can look back and wonder, we're the back pains, repetitive strain injury from guitar playing, knee pains, insomnia, all manifestations of Lyme that has lain dormant for years?

As for your fitness, you never know. A coworker if mine had Lyme a few years ago. She was at deaths doorstep. Went from 135 to 85#. Wheelchair bound for a while. Took her 4 years to recover but she's fit as a fiddle now, swims laps every morning at 5 am, works full time as a 3rd grade teacher and is as vital as ever. She's about in her mid 50's. I'm glad you can use the elliptical and get in some resistance training. I've not yet experienced appreciable recovery. Thought I had, then herxed bad from abab and that set me back.
Posted 3/2/2017 7:24 PM (GMT -5)
Your immune system can best tested with a simple blood test-just ask any good doc and they will run it. Lab have big ranges to these test-mine were in the lower part of the range for most all parts of immune system.
Like any blood test that only look at your body that minute the blood is drawn-tomorrow or yesterday may have been different.
Most lyme patients and sick patients had something or somethings wear down their immune system over time. You wouldn't be sick if your system was great. Many people get bit by a tick with lyme and nothing really happens-many others are healed with a couple weeks of doxy.
I usually think we should all look at and treat-heavy metals-dental and parasite-along with eating a good diet. That my list of stuff that wears down your immune system-over time
Good luck
Posted 3/2/2017 8:30 PM (GMT -5)
I wouldn't say all of your weight loss was due to this, but you must remember that muscle weighs more than fat does, so when you lose muscle mass, the weight goes with it.

As for the infections speeding up metabolism, we probably due burn a few more more calories when we're running a temperature, since it's the body doing it as it fights, so maybe little bits from these areas combined make the pounds come off like that when we're eating the same.

Also, not all muscle in us is visible on the outside.

ETA: "Since it is denser, muscle does weigh more than fat if you compare same-size portions. On average, the density of fat is 0.9 g/mL. The density of muscle is 1.1 g/mL. Using the averages, 1 liter of muscle weighs 1.06 kg, or 2.3 lbs., while 1 liter of fat weighs .9 kg, or 1.98 lbs. "

Not a huge difference, but some, depending on how fit you are and the amount of muscle mass lost.

Post Edited (julymorning) : 3/2/2017 6:34:34 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/3/2017 12:03 AM (GMT -5)

Black Jack Davey said...

bluelyme said...
I lost 20 #...and had real site specific muscle wasting i attribute to batonella and lower motor neuron disfuntion....


Bluelyme, I've got some site specific muscle wasting as well, my dominant right quad and my right vocal cord. Did that wasting resolve with treatment?

Ive got overall weight loss as well. It's very puzzling as to WHY I've lost 20# in spite of good nutrition and elimination. I wonder, could it be the body's wisdom? Shedding fat that harbors toxins? Or? I've been trying some daily pea protein shakes to see if that'll help me gain weight back but after almost 2 weeks, nuttin.
Best Regards,
David

my theory is nerves get damaged and muscles subsequently. ..i was told that nerves can repair at 1mm a week ...also read that by the time we see wasting more than half the nerves are dead ...i believe bvt ,and bartonella tx has stopped the wasting ..i have gained weight but not muscle , trying colostrum and royal jelly with collagen ..going to stop abx a tebuid gut next month...there are 400 species of bacteria in a normal healthy gut ..."no more muscles " from lymenet believes this 8s key but has not gained his back (he thinks its gut)...another member has with 1 year pulsing abx then herbs ...
I am stinging the sites regularly and have had better circulation ..it may be a microcirculation thing with bartonella in the endothial lining causing claudation and arthrosclerosis but its just theory ..with microscopy you can see wbc activity ...erlichia effects wbc and causes a wasting syndrome in dogs ...
my best dog died from similar wasting syndrom and had been bit by many ticks ..vet said it was liver disease at autopsy ..and many protiens are made there ..and bartonella lives it there and its abx priveleged are like many other body parts ...any one got a triquarter ?.. or a better yet a transporter i could just leave bugs behind and start fresh ...
Posted 3/3/2017 10:34 AM (GMT -5)

magoo2 said...
Your immune system can best tested with a simple blood test-just ask any good doc and they will run it.
Good luck


Magoo, what test would that be?
Posted 3/3/2017 1:38 PM (GMT -5)
Lyme immune common blood tests are C4a, C3a, CD-57- they are not the best for measuring this, but commonly used.

Then there are people who develop autoimmune "diseases" after lyme infection like Hashimoto, Celiac or Lupus ect with actual antibody tests to prove it.

And, the i-Spot lyme test, which measures the strenthh of your immune T cells when subject to a know lab provided sample of BB lyme bacteria.

New food alergies after lyme.

Based on all of the above, a Dr can say my immune system is or was messed up.
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