Is EM rash = lyme disease or not?

Hi Jinna -

Thanks for posting - interesting book. The info jibes with the research I've done in terms of the epidemiology and entymology of the bite. The IDSA version of infection is defined by a) presence of infection vs. b) manifestation of the disease. I'm certainly not promoting the IDSA but the "industry" does differentiate between having the microbe in the body and developing the disease.

The trouble is "they" don't know who will or won't manifest any or what symptoms, who can be effectively treated with early prophylaxis, who needs 3 mos. of abx, who will become chronically infected no matter what.

So this is why even the strictest guidelines built around the narrowest definition of Lyme disease recommend that anyone who qualifies (has exposure, found a deer tick attached for X hours, and/or develops the EM) should get a prophylactic course of abx while waiting for (horrifyingly inaccurate) test results.

More "proof" is required if you want a full course (21 days) of abx. And then you jump through hoops for decades if you want anything else or go alternative.

ETA: Sorry! Meant to add that the ONE positive thing in this whole mess is that at the moment, there is general consensus (general, not total) that the EM isn't produceable by any other microbe so if it shows up, the Bb is there. That is why even the IDSA Guidelines recommend prophylactic abx doses (literally, I think only a couple) are recommended if an EM is produced, then "wait for sx" for more tx. I'm not advocating that a few days of abx is an appropriate response but the point is, even the IDSA says EM=Bb.... so, I guess there's that. ;)

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 5/26/2017 4:56:42 PM (GMT-6)

Again, your distinction between identifying the presence of Bb (with positive WB, EM) and development of disease (with sx) is true. That's primarily why Lyme dx is a clinical determination.

I don't believe the CDC's numbers are at all accurate, but for some, abx prophylactic might cause problems, for many (most?) it doesn't or the Lyme situation would be much different than it is now. If not for the extreme symptoms some develop (and early on, this was debilitating arthritis and eventually linked to heart issues) it's possible non-treatment would have been recommended. There are probably other examples of bites that are initially troubling but generally not life-threatening that are left untreated.

It's impossible to know or compare cause and effect for those who did or didn't have EM or early abx and long-term impact. There are a couple dozen scenarios that follow initial tickbite and far too many variables to draw too many conclusions.

With a few caveats:
- We do know that there are people who develop the EM who never get tx and never develop problems (so far).
- We do know that people like me become chronic w/out treatment. Others eventually have problems but often have no clue that Bb has done damage.
- We do know that there are people who get abx immediately and still develop problems, some are chronic.

It's possible that you, personally, might never have become symptomatic with no treatment but life with Bb has far too many variables to be certain of that as the distinguishing factor.

I think you should probably share quantitative data along with your statement about Swiss having pos WB w/out illness. Have there been studies? We'd love to read more - it's quite interesting. There are definitely different European strains although they were also found in the US decades ago and were used in early bioengineering. So there is some foundational comparison but the roads diverged somewhere along the way.

Yes, the Bb has morphed from early manifestations of EM or Lyme disease. Again, something caused that shift in this particular microbe and I contend that it was an engineered shift. There is plenty of documentation that Bb was engineered as a bioweapon and I think that is the starting point for that shift and that it's probably a lot more complex.

I think your broader point is that you want to caution against abx. It's always good to have a conversation about abx risk but a "non-treatment" approach probably won't fly well around these parts!

The science is far to complicated and some of it is yet to be discovered. And no, I don't agree that it's abx that has caused the modern shifts in Bb. I do think that for some people, abx can be problematic, in general and/or problematic for Lyme tx.

-p

Jinna said...


Give a course of abx just as preventative seems the logical approach, yes. that is what I received, 2 weeks doxy with EM rash.

A month later, I fell ill with lyme symptoms.

I just keep wondering, as I know people with EM rash never developing lyme here where I live.


Here in Switzerland is getting more and more clear: too many people have positive Westernblot in research areas, and very few of them present lyme.

You didn't treat long enough - two weeks is not the recommended treatment - Lyme Treatment Guidelines (Burrascano) states 6 weeks.

Maybe those people do have symptoms but don't realize that they're due to the Lyme infection.
Maybe it's several months later and it's not being attributed to LD.
They could develop some symptoms later on and end up with an Autoimmune disease diagnosis ...

To tell you the truth, I wanted more than 2 weeks, but the dr didn't want to prescribe me.
I had zero symptoms then, except for the EM rash. I felt truly good then.

My daughter fell ill with lyme about a year later. So I knew, she needed longer abx.
So I 'believed'.

The DAY I found her tick, I could give her amoxy (she was only 2, that was the only drug drs could give her back then).

She took 5 weeks, no interruption, and went very down.
Our lyme doctor told me: 'Pull her out of that abx NOW!'

So I did that. Since then, she never touched an antibiotic again.

So the early aggressive treatment did not work for my daughter.

She was going downwards almost every day, despite starting on day 2 after the bite (she was bitten the day before, in the country house, then we found the tick next day! and started immediately).

the problem could be coinfections, of course, amoxy is a bad antibiotic to use.

It took her so long to recover after those 5 weeks of bombardment. She was miserable.

We started then only natural treatments, which was FAR more complex than a couple of drugs, but she always improved much faster.

So now, we are still bitten, but we never touch an antibiotic.

I suffered from chronic candida previous to lyme. So my gut microbes were not in balance.
That is an open door to lyme, of course...

That's why, today, if I could go back in time, I would not have gone to the local dr. first.

Second, I would not have touched any antibiotic, but taken homeopathic things, herbs, my photon + nosode treatment, stuff like that.

Of course, it is always better to prevent disease to spread, if we can.
But I do have big questions on antibiotics as preventive... specially for small children, who can't take many combos of drugs.

The math goes like this:

If 100 people are bitten here in my region, as 1/3 of ticks carry Bb, so about 33 people should get ill.

But only 3 to 5 people will get stage 1 lyme (EM rash, etc). Much less people develop further chronic stages.

All other 28-30 people will not even get Borrelia antibodies!???

As though they never even fought the pathogen!???

The same way we don't get the flu while others get, or colds when others get, I suppose!

My daughter and I are bitten every single year, the average is about 3-5 times a year for each of us.
It means, our statistical chance to be injected with Borrelia is 100%.

Before, we would fall ill at almost EVERY tick bite. Very ill, not just a bit ill.

It's been 8 years lyme free, despite bites.

I do believe the problem is not only the pathogen, but the immune system.

Most of my neighbors are bitten, to a larger or lesser extent. Ticks are everywhere here.
No one is afraid of lyme, except for our family!!

W. Burgdorferi studied in Basel, Switzerland!!

And Traub, the inventor of weaponized Bb was a German ****. He developed weaponized Bb here in Tubingen during the WWII before he went to the US, to develop it further!!

If you google map Tubingen, you'll see the lake of Konstanz, very close to where I live!!!

I went there by bike today!!

According to dr. K, we got the first bout of neuro lyme and all the bad diseases before Lyme Connecticut.

http://www.transgenderwarrior.org/pdf/lyme36.pdf
It does look that Bb had been weaponized in more than one country....

Don't think you guys got the weaponized, harder strains only, while we got the kinder types of Borrelia, so it's easy for us to treat.

Dr. K himself took long to heal from his lyme disease, that he caught here in the Black Forest.