Serrapatese-Nattokinase Mix: Herx means Lyme or co is active?

I dont have an answer for you.........but what a coincidence as I just popped two capsules of each that you mentioned after not using either for a couple years.

Im using these since they are supposedly both fibrogenic supplements, each working on different body systems, one more vascular/circulatory and one more muscle structure tissue and tumor/cystic.

https://www.energeticnutrition.com/blog/2017/02/systemic-enzyme-therapy-differences-serrapeptase-nattokinase/ :

Serra is more for non-cirulatory, Natto is more for circulatory

https://blog.bulletproof.com/serrapeptase-benefits-dosage/ :

- "Fish oil is a mild-to-moderate blood thinner, as is serrapeptase. The two together may make your blood too thin. Fish oil and serrapeptase aren’t necessarily dangerous together, but they can be in some cases. Definitely talk to your doctor about the pair.

- Aspirin. Aspirin is a more powerful blood thinner. Don’t take aspirin and serrapeptase together.

- Clopidogrel, Warfarin, and other prescription blood thinners. Same as above — if you’re on any type of blood thinner, don’t add serrapeptase."

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/26/2019 10:34:29 PM (GMT-7)

13 Benefits of Serrapeptase:
https://selfhacked.com/blog/health-benefits-serrapeptase/

This is interesting. After taking two serra and two natto, and monularine I seem to be more:
1) lose/limber (although fit, my body is beat)
and
2) my calf's have better circulation even after sitting around all day. Zero calf edema, even though a fit person should NOT have any edema anyway, which has weirded me out the last few months as this got worse.

No herxing of any type, my sniffles from this morning have gone away.

The above can be both related and separate in cause. I think i'll continue two capsules each everyday and monitor: pain / stiffness, circulation (feel and visual), blood pressure and blood sugar. Once I get a feel of what both feel like then ill switch to just one then the other to try and figure out which one relieves what.

I wish I could find a alternative Dr who understood circulation better.. Conventional drs just look at lipids (mine are fine) and figure you are at stroke level or you aren't, they ignore the middle like usual.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/26/2019 11:13:41 PM (GMT-7)

Japanese knotweed is a blood thinner.

From what I have read, serrapeptase also has antibiotic qualities, which might explain your reaction to it without antibiotics.

Lumbro and seŕra always seem to breakbup biofilm . And cause more of the same ol symptoms. Unless i had a strong enough killing agent in my bloodstream concurrently. ...

astroman said...
lots of info..........

from this E book: ".........................A: I strongly recommend BlockBusterAllClear. This has Serrapeptase and Nattokinase™, as well as other enzymes and Pycnogenol, to help get your cardio system healthy. Nattokinase™ will dissolve blood clots, whereas Warfarin just stops clots forming. There is no interaction between them as they
do different jobs."

Interesting and contradictory to another quote I copied/posted. At least this tell why, unlike Warfarin, Natto is not a thinner. Good to know.

Here's something I just remembered from the website of an enzyme product (Zymessence) I've previously used:

"Comparision Question #2: Nattokinase: On products that tout they have nattokinase and on how great nattokinase is; why does Zymessence® not have nattokinase?

Point #2) Dr. Wong HATES nattokinase. Of all the proteolytic enzymes it is the only one that does not have a feedback mechanism to let it know when to stop lysing, (i.e. eating) blood proteins.

In nature nattokinase is always found with Vitamin K1 and that prevents the blood from becoming overly thin when eating the natto curd and taking in the nattokinase enzyme. When the nattokinase is extracted from that curd, the Vitamin K is left behind. So, of all the proteolytic enzymes it is the one most likely to create the danger of overly thin blood and cause hemorrhagic bleeding issues. We've spoken to two docs, one of whom is a very famous alternative doc, who got both themselves and their patients in bleeding trouble by using what were modest dosing levels of nattokinase.

Though nattokinase is highly touted by health food industry hype, the Handbook of Proteolytic Enzymes tells us that nattokinase does not do anything that the serrapeptidase, trypsin, chymotrypsin or papain does not do, including clearing the excess fibrin and adhesion molecules as well as lysing away arterial plaque. In terms of fibrinolysis, nattokinase and serrapeptidase are nearly equal with the serrapeptidase having a slight advantage. Another advantage of using serrapeptidase and the other enzymes is they are considerably safer at doing that job than the nattokinase."

Source: https://drwongsessentials.com/zymessence-compared

I've also used a proteolytic enzyme called "pHi-Zymes" that contains nattokinase:

https://www.baselinenutritionals.com/phi-zymes-90.htm
https://jonbarron.org/article/proteolytic-enzyme-formula

Since I've stopped supplementation (with the exception of low-dose, extended-release melatonin), it's been nice to not have to think much about this stuff!

.

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 11/5/2019 1:09:39 AM (GMT-7)

My "achilles heel" in life is concern for health. Have always taken staying in shape and being an example for my kids critical. Then, going 11 years before being diagnosed with Lyme, I became obsessed with what was wrong and developed health anxiety. Knew something was wrong, as was checked for everything from Leukemia to craziness.

Now, looking back on old test results, I see the kidney problem that has developed could have been avoided with doctors who had seen the urgency in a low GFR. It doesn't mean anyone who has a test that shows a low GFR has kidney disease, but years of it should be enough to wake someone up. I was told it's not abnormal with Lyme Disease. May be true, but continuous pattern of it should have been looked into.

That leaves us with the internet to make it, and as astroman mentioned, you get conflicting information.

I have more faith in people on this site than doctors.

Here I am getting this post off track.

I cant believe the difference between some conventional Drs. How does this ignorance exist in medicine, its awful.

Ive had some post lyme, non-lyme issues to deal with lately, which I really had to learn of these certain organ function connections on my own, because there were no local GP's knowledgeable or eager enough to help out.

The individual specialists said to go back to a GP to put it together. I go to several and one says "you need someone to figure this out, who's doing this?" My answer: "that why I'm here, for you, my GP to help out" . GP: "This is to far over my head". Me: "I guess I'll keep learning this myself then since Drs cant or wont and still pay you for this visit".

Cant make this stuff up.

On the plus side, I do have one caring and smart specialist that tests into other specialist "territory" though. She does somewhat look at the big puzzle and is surprised what important stuff I find which other Drs blow off or point in other directions. Shes limited to how far she can go though. Not to far off from my experience when my mom died, specialists pointing fingers at each other and not one of them capable of making sound decisions or taking charge. People get fired for this in other occupations.

*end of rant*

Girlie - In October, 2011, GFR was 76 and creatinine was 1.09. Exactly six years ago the GFR was 60 and creatinine was 1.31. 5 years ago I had a creatinine clearance test that was low. Neither was mentioned to me to be abnormal or needing more investigation.

While there have been lower tests in the last two years, none have been below 50 on GFR and highest creatinine was at 1.50. Less than a week ago, GFR was 56 and creatinine was 1.35. Also have protein in urine, which was less than 150 on last 24 hour test last week. Think the protein lowering is because of an ACE inhibitor new nephrologist has me taking.

High blood pressure seemed to start about same time what I now know are Lyme symptoms came back big time in 2012 (all this started in 2002, and people thought I was a hypochondriac). Was diagnosed with Lyme in early 2013.

Started cutting back on proteins on my own about 4 months ago and looking into kidney disease. Tried a number of HBP meds I struggled to tolerate because of side effects. Trying to figure out what is kidney and what is Lyme. That is the tough part, along with the fact the diets for each problem conflict a lot.

It seems serra and/or natto help with the BP. Based on what astroman has found, it is probably the serra. The nephrologist I now see is very good, very experienced but does not believe in chronic Lyme. He also thinks side effects are "all in your head." So I work around that.

sandyfeet said...

running wild said...
sandy feet - we just have to keep looking for ourselves, without getting obsessive (which is easier said than done).

Yes! That’s definitely the flip downside to looking after our own health. I tend to put up and wait things out and that didn’t serve me too well with this lyme thing. I’m trying not to go the other way but it’s not always easy. Assertive but not hypochondriac feels like a fine line to walk especially when you have an iffy relationship with your practitioner :l

Learned long ago with Lyme, just have to keep on doing what you have to do. And there will always be those who don't understand and think you are a hypochondriac. They have no idea. So many people thought I had flipped out when I, for years, kept looking for the problem.

On this site, that's not a problem, which brings help and some peace of mind.

running wild - the quote function works fine if you’re quoting one person... but when there’s a quote in a quote - it gets messed up.
Then you have to manually fix it....

It happened when the forum was upgraded.
It’s not you... lol.

I did point it out to admin in the “Mod Forum” but was basically told to stop quoting so much....

Alrighty then ...

An upgrade shouldn’t result in losing features IMO.