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Posted 4/24/2020 3:27 PM (GMT -5)
We who have Lyme are no strangers to cytokine storms. We know that inflammatory cytokines are the causes of many of our symptoms and herxes. Cytokines are in the news now because cytokine storms are what's killing COVID victims, and that has been the case with other viruses as well, such as the Spanish flu in 1918. I have posted a few times about this, as cytokine storms have struck me down hard following mild colds that I seem to fight off just fine and then boom! A cytokine storm blows in, and I'm in bed for weeks or months, sometimes admitted to a hospital, wracked by new and scary and disabling symptoms.

I have been known to delve into medical literature now and then, but not as much as a few other members on this forum. I am hoping that someone has advice about this. If we get COVID or any other virus, how do we support our immune system in ways that modulate it and avoid making it over-react? How do we intercede when a cytokine storm starts? The same things that we do when it happens with a herx?

My LLMD is a fan of the Researched Nutritionals product CytoQuel (NAC, black tea, tocotrienols, curcumin, trans-resveratrol). Glutathione is mentioned often and/or its precursors NAC and alpha lipoic acid. Certain medicinal mushrooms (reishi, cordyceps) are supposed to modulate immune response, as are adaptogens. Does anyone with a history of post-viral cytokine storms have experience with these supplements being helpful? Are there prescriptions that people have used for cytokine regulation? I take lots of adaptogens, glutathione, mushrooms, and curcumin, but I still get smacked down after a cold.

That said, I also take vitamin C, echinacea, quercetin, bromelain, manuka honey, elderberry, selenium, and other supplements for the immune system. Do any of those promote that over-reaction of the immune system? Recently I have read about elderberry and selenium possibly promoting cytokine storms....

Really hoping for some feedback about all of this. Maybe someone has been researching these things, too, and can chime in.
Posted 4/24/2020 9:22 PM (GMT -5)
The way you describe your experiences with cytokine storms at the tail end of mild colds is not something I'm familiar with. I can understand how it would be of critical concern for you at this time, and I hope this thread gets a lot of attention. Your posts in other threads are always so thoughtful and very well written! I hope the community is able reciprocate here with some helpful discussion.

I'm offering my thoughts more for the bump than anything, because I don't consider myself particularly knowledgeable. Most of what I have learned about cytokines in the past few years has come from Buhner (in the context of Lyme and co.). Here is what he is recommending for cytokine modulation in his protocol for Covid-19...

Stephen Buhner said...

4) Modulate cytokine responses (Salvia miltorrhiza), including the lowering of TGF levels [Angelica sinensis (dong quai), Astragalus monghilicus], regulating HMGB1 (Salvia miltiorrhiza), and reducing IL-1b [Polygonum cuspidatum(Japanese knotweed), Scutellaria baicalensis (Chinese skullcap), Cordyceps spp, Pueraria (kudzu), and Eupatorium perfoliatum (boneset)]


That is from page 13 here: https://www.stephenharrodbuhner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/coronavirus.txt.pdf

Of the herbs you've mentioned, I know echinacea stimulates the immune system, so it might contribute to an unwarranted cytokine storm. It is also not something that should be taken for long periods of time.

Post Edited (potsnpans) : 4/25/2020 9:22:24 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/24/2020 10:46 PM (GMT -5)
Sara,

If my memory serves me well (ha! ha!), the 2 main things Buhner refers to for cytokine storms with Lyme or bartonella is Chinese skullcap (Scutellarria baicalensis) and Danshen/Red sage (salvia miltiorhiza). At least those are the 2 I focused on. In his Healing Lyme book in the recommendation for specific symptoms, he had Chinese skullcap for cytokine storms.

I took the combination tincture of these two for a long time and felt conflicted. While I got up to a dropperful, I felt like it was a difficult one for me. I finally ordered the herbs separately and found that I had an immensely positive response to skullcap and a decidedly negative response to danshen. At that point, I started taking the max dose of skullcap and dropped danshen altogether for a while. I later added danshen back at a lower dose until I finished that bottle. I don’t have any right now.

I said all that to say that you may respond wonderfully to one or more cytokine or immune modulating herbs and not to others. I would make sure I had at least those 2 on hand, but test your reactions and tolerance beforehand not once you’re sick.

I have had the same kind of cytokine storms as you at the tail end of a virus or acute infection. It’s a frightening thing. The last time it happened at the end of a weird stomach virus. I was driving when the storm started and could feel it moving through my body. As soon as I got home, I took anti-inflammatory supplements and whatever I could think of. I have SPM Active by Metagenics. It’s a constituent of fish oil. It saved me in my first cytokine storm, so I keep it for emergencies (expensive stuff).

The top things I have and would think of would be SPM Active, fish oil, curcumin, Vit C, quercetin, Chinese skullcap. I would take all of them at the first sign of a storm and repeat until the storm stopped.

A cytokine storm is like an avalanche. You want to throw everything you’ve got out to stop it on the front end and continue frequent dosing. Once it starts rolling, it can quickly get out of control.

I don’t know how much conventional doctors know about cytokine storms and how to stop them, but I am guessing not enough. Buhner goes into detail about cytokine storms in the Lyme book, I believe.

1 g Vit C administered every 30 minutes is what Georgia Hunter recommended, isn’t it?

——-
POST EDIT: I had typed Chinese cat’s claw by mistake when I meant Chinese skullcap. I corrected my post.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 4/25/2020 5:44:31 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/24/2020 11:17 PM (GMT -5)
May be best to drop the elderberry if you get an active infection.
Posted 4/24/2020 11:42 PM (GMT -5)

Lightlife said...
May be best to drop the elderberry if you get an active infection.

Why?
Posted 4/24/2020 11:43 PM (GMT -5)
potsnpans,

Thanks for sharing that link.
Posted 4/25/2020 2:08 AM (GMT -5)
Expensive and only 2 reviews but this book might be good to rent as an ebook and have a look at.
https://www.amazon.com/cytokine-storm-syndrome-randy-cron-ebook/dp/b07xk28x2c/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=cytokine+storm&qid=1587798778&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

My knowledge about cytokine storms is pretty poor.
Posted 4/25/2020 11:58 AM (GMT -5)

WalkingbyFaith said...
Sara,

If my memory serves me well (ha! ha!), the 2 main things Buhner refers to for cytokine storms with Lyme or bartonella is Chinese skullcap (Scutellarria baicalensis) and Danshen/Red sage (salvia miltiorhiza). At least those are the 2 I focused on. In his Healing Lyme book in the recommendation for specific symptoms, he had Chinese skullcap for cytokine storms.

I took the combination tincture of these two for a long time and felt conflicted. While I got up to a dropperful, I felt like it was a difficult one for me. I finally ordered the herbs separately and found that I had an immensely positive response to skullcap and a decidedly negative response to danshen. At that point, I started taking the max dose of skullcap and dropped danshen altogether for a while. I later added danshen back at a lower dose until I finished that bottle. I don’t have any right now.

I said all that to say that you may respond wonderfully to one or more cytokine or immune modulating herbs and not to others. I would make sure I had at least those 2 on hand, but test your reactions and tolerance beforehand not once you’re sick.

I have had the same kind of cytokine storms as you at the tail end of a virus or acute infection. It’s a frightening thing. The last time it happened at the end of a weird stomach virus. I was driving when the storm started and could feel it moving through my body. As soon as I got home, I took anti-inflammatory supplements and whatever I could think of. I have SPM Active by Metagenics. It’s a constituent of fish oil. It saved me in my first cytokine storm, so I keep it for emergencies (expensive stuff).

The top things I have and would think of would be SPM Active, fish oil, curcumin, Vit C, quercetin, Chinese skullcap. I would take all of them at the first sign of a storm and repeat until the storm stopped.

A cytokine storm is like an avalanche. You want to throw everything you’ve got out to stop it on the front end and continue frequent dosing. Once it starts rolling, it can quickly get out of control.

I don’t know how much conventional doctors know about cytokine storms and how to stop them, but I am guessing not enough. Buhner goes into detail about cytokine storms in the Lyme book, I believe.

1 g Vit C administered every 30 minutes is what Georgia Hunter recommended, isn’t it?

——-
POST EDIT: I had typed Chinese cat’s claw by mistake when I meant Chinese skullcap. I corrected my post.

Interesting I had the same response. The Chinese skullcap I was able to tolerate and felt
It helped, but I stopped the red sage not long after beginning because I felt l couldn’t handle it. My dizziness and vertigo and headaches came back literally as soon as I started it. This was confirmed w a subsequent test where I stopped and then restarted
Posted 4/25/2020 9:09 PM (GMT -5)
I believe the elderberry stimulates a certain pathway that is counter productive with this particular virus once established. I think it's a better safe than sorry kind of thing in this particular case.

I read a lot of back and fort on elderberry as it's my fav and one that is a goto antiviral for many. The herbal world is lit up with trying to navigate this...I read, try to process and am not so good at reiterating the technical info. At this point, I think the idea is to hold off due to any possible increase in the potential very heavy covid storm.

These a lot of info to weed through... I believe bruhner was reccomending elder leaves not the berry...

Post Edited (Lightlife) : 4/25/2020 8:38:06 PM (GMT-6)

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