Hout challenge.

Lightlife said...
I'm still trying to determine if mold is really an issue.

Would challenging hout give me an idea.

Houtt will give you an idea if you have bartonella. It will NOT tell you that mold is not an issue. Many people have both.

Lightlife said...
St this point Ive removed myself and tried cholestyramine and I'm no better. In fact I'm at my worst . Back pain and tingling and fog depression .

You could very well be feeling worse because you are detoxing mold. I am sorry you’re going through this, but there is no quick fix for mold. When I left my first moldy house, it took 8 months before I had 1 good day. I had constant burning for 8 months plus many other symptoms that rotated like a merry go round.

Lightlife said...
Do those passing h lines In Vision mean anything. Look like squiggly lines.

I’m not sure about squiggly lines. See an ophthalmologist. Blurry vision is extremely common with mold and is a sign of toxic overload.

You can certainly start Buhner’s protocols for Lyme and bart. Just go very low and slow.

Thanks guys...

Garzie- did you ever start back up on bruhners Bart / myco??

Wbf-
What did you do in those eight months to help heal?

I have left that space for six weeks at a time several times before and never felt this bad for this long. It's not really letting up.

Would you think to start back up on cholestyramine?

At this point I'm not taking anything most of day because I wake up burping/ hesrtburn and am kind of repulsed by all supps and most food.

yes -but I came to the conclusion that for me at least - no short sharp treatment was going to work -

and, much as i would like such a thing to exist and for it to work for me - all the evidence i had to date pointed to simply not being able to tolerate any such treatments for long enough - or the inflammation / herx induced by them was likely to be detrimental rather than conducive to healing.

so just over 1 year ago - i started with a Long and Slow program - again based on Buhners herbs - this time starting with all teh immune modulating and anti-inflammatory herbs - Knotweed, cats claw, salvia, skullcap, kudzu, cordyceps etc ( basically folloing his last updated lyme book )

then after around 9 months of this and getting some very useful improvements - I started very gradually to add the more anti-microbial herbs( houttuynia, sida, cryptolepis, alcornea, teasel, mahonia/berberis) - i added only one at a time and had to go very slowly in increasing doses - and i did get herx from this - but could manage it well as i was not stepping anything up dramatically.

i have also taken several rounds of ABX around this time - and again had worsening symptoms lasting for up to 6 weeks or so - and then some improvement - but no more than from the herbs and had t stop ABX due to issues with my liver.

so i am now continuing with the herbs only - i am now consuming around 3x the dose of the antimicrobial herbs that would previously have given me v strong herx symptoms and am continuing to make measurable improvements - eg walking further and faster - and able to do more tasks in the day and lift more weights

at this point, i am cautiously optimistic that this will get me where i wish to go - albeit at a slower rate than i would ideally like. its infinitely better than being stuck and every month i have a little more function.

I started out seeing a Functional MD who treated CIRS and had been treated for Lyme herself. She was great at doing the right labs that identified CIRS, immune dysfunction, and eventually Lyme. She tried to treat me for CIRS/mold based on the Shoemaker protocol with cholestyramine. I was extremely sensitive and couldn’t tolerate the doses I was trying to take. We agreed to try to treat Lyme with 30 days of minocycline. After 7 days, she told me to stop because my symptoms were worsening. After stopping the abx, I got much worse and basically had a 4 month herx that left me worse of than before. She basically gave up on me at that point.

After realizing she was taking my money and doing nothing, I left her and started trying to find my own way and chose Buhner’s. I started with the help of the awesome people on this forum and self treated for 5 months before seeing a Lyme doctor. I told the Lyme doctor up front that I was treating with herbs and didn’t want abx but needed a doctor to help guide me, test me, and help with the peripheral issues that come with all this. I still see her because I get testing, discounted supplements, and Rx for antifungals and antiparasitics. She makes suggestions, I basically pick and choose what I do.

I don’t have any other real options for a doctor due to lack of money and geographical location.

"acc to Buhner - its although specific for Bartonella - its a fairly good broad anti-microbial so it may kill a lot of other things - which means it could provoke a herx by killing something else.

sometimes wonder if Herx is to do with killing gut bacteria more than systemic infections - but we simply do not know enough yet to be able to tell for sure."

- thats how I view most "killer" herbs, not just ABX.

HH or hout is an ancient chinese herb. They took it for internal cleansing. So im guessing it kills off a lot of stuff.

Same with ABX- when we stop herxing did it kill a specific bug? ...we know it kills good bacteria too. Im guessing healthy people will also herx on higher levels of ABX used for tick illness too.

"something odd going on in our case - would not surprise me if it is related to the gut bacteria or gut permeability or both"

I think detoxing being less efficient is also worth mentioning, and sometimes a hypersensitivity to biochemicals/toxins (immune related)

It seems clear that the problem is not "we have pathogens, therefore we herx".. and unfortunately that flawed idea has led many of us down the wrong path.

As for herxing, there is absolutely something different about us apart from normal people.

I took short term abx many times during the first 45 years of my life and never herxed. After my immune system went off the cliff in 2015 following bronchitis, all that changed. Since then, I have been on minocycline for 7 days (left me physically disabled for almost 4 months and worse off than before); Augmentin or amoxicillin 2 or 3 times for 7 days followed by a cytokine storm that lasted weeks; and most recently Flagyl for 7 days, which caused mild brain inflammation while on it but no cytokine storm following but did mess up my gut again. I also had a cytokine storm at the conclusion of a stomach virus with no abx involved.

I do not think normal people have herxes from abx or herbs. However, I don’t know about people with other chronic illnesses who don’t have Lyme. Then again, how can you prove someone doesn’t have Lyme? Even people with bullseye rashes or CDC positive tests have been lied to and told they absolutely did not have Lyme and were diagnosed with “xyz syndrome” instead.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 10/9/2020 12:44:26 PM (GMT-6)

I just looked up Jarisch Herxheimer, and the medical data identifies it only with spirochetal infections. So, I would not expect anyone with no spirochetal infection to herx.

Can abx make a person feel sick and awful? Yes, but that is not the same as a herx.

Borrelia alters the immune system and the gut, does it not?

WalkingbyFaith said...
Lightlife,

To help wind this thread back to your topic, if you were to take 10 drops of houtty and have electrical zaps, twitching or jerking, foot pain, shin pain, scratch marks, stretch marks, or bouts of rage, then I would say - yep, sounds like a bartonella herx to me.

If you gave your healthy friend 10 drops of houtty, I would not expect anything to happen to her.

good suggestion - and well done for bringing back on topic!

Been on knotweed and red root for 2 weeks no herx that I noticed. Added sida baikal skullcap and cordyceps past 2 days all migraines went away. Hv horrible neck cracking and encephalitis idk y so last night took 10 drops each and omg panic attack so severe hyperventilating shaking chills fast heartbeat tachycardia herx or allergic too many drops at once? Also burning sensations on head scalp chest stomach wt is that herx is that even normal? What is best detox method and.quick? Must say hvnt detoxed in a while thanks

Post Edited (MedicalNerd) : 10/13/2020 8:18:00 AM (GMT-6)