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Posted 7/23/2021 8:06 AM (GMT -5)
I've probably posted on this before so I apologize in advance ,my mind is like so foggy and short term memory. Does anyone know the core protocol from buhner that's updated 2021 for TBRF? My nurse said I need to treat for this rather than lyme. It makes sense as I kept having relapse now that I look back
Posted 7/23/2021 12:04 PM (GMT -5)
relapsing fever for me was a type of rickettsia.. treat that and you will cover u r bases ... dr klinghardt suggests treat from biggest pathogens to smallest virus to avoid reinfection with russian nesting doll syndrome...its always a shame to lose gains or waste money/time
Posted 7/23/2021 12:07 PM (GMT -5)

bluelyme said...
relapsing fever for me was a type of rickettsia.. treat that and you will cover u r bases ... dr klinghardt suggests treat from biggest pathogens to smallest virus to avoid reinfection with russian nesting doll syndrome...its always a shame to lose gains or waste money/time

Hey thanks! I did the biofeedback once and told me I had rickettsia. At the time I didnt even know what that was. Do u happen to know the buhner protocol for rickettsia then?
Posted 7/23/2021 1:10 PM (GMT -5)
I just looked through most posts and cnt really find anything on tbrf same as on buhner website
Posted 7/23/2021 1:50 PM (GMT -5)
I found this on the internet - if you scroll down they have the relapsing fever protocol.

https://naturally-at-home.com/2018/09/12/the-buhner-protocols-for-lyme-disease-and-tick-borne-relapsing-fever/
Posted 7/23/2021 1:52 PM (GMT -5)
Protecting endothelial structures: Japanese knotweed tincture, 1/4-1 tsp 3-6x daily

Cytokine remodulators:
Red sage tincture, 1/2 tsp 3x daily; Chinese scullcap tincture, 1/2 tsp 3x daily

Restoring collagenous structures: Great Lakes collagen powder, 1 Tbsp daily (or a combination of pea protein powder, 2 Tbsp daily, and l-glycine and l-proline for vegetarians); vitamin C, 1000-3000 mg daily; selenium, 200 mcg daily

Immune remodulation:
Cat’s claw tincture, 1/4-1/2 tsp 3x daily; Cordyceps tincture, 1/2-1 tsp 3x daily; Ashwagandha tincture, 1/4 tsp 3x daily; Eleutherococcus tincture, 1/2 tsp 3x daily (1:5 formula); Licorice root tincture, 1/4 tsp 3x daily

Antispirochetal:
Andrographis (begin with a small dose and work up; check side effects of herb because unpleasant allergic reactions can occur) 1/4 tsp 3x daily if using the tincture version.
Neuroborreliosis: Gou Teng tincture, 1/2-1 tsp 3-6x daily, depending on severity of brain infection
Extended Repertory


For Tick Borne Relapsing Fever:
add Sida acuta, 5-40 drops 3x daily; Milk thistle seed, standardized, 1200 mg 3x daily; and EGCG and Quercetin
For herxheimer reactions: zeolite, activated charcoal, chlorella, green clay (internally), fruit pectin, epsom salt baths, and/or castor oil packs on liver, daily; food-grade diatomaceous earth for herx reactions in GI tract
Posted 7/23/2021 4:14 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
I found this on the internet - if you scroll down they have the relapsing fever protocol.

https://naturally-at-home.com/2018/09/12/the-buhner-protocols-for-lyme-disease-and-tick-borne-relapsing-fever/

Thanks girlie!
Posted 7/23/2021 4:55 PM (GMT -5)

Girlie said...
Protecting endothelial structures: Japanese knotweed tincture, 1/4-1 tsp 3-6x daily

Cytokine remodulators:
Red sage tincture, 1/2 tsp 3x daily; Chinese scullcap tincture, 1/2 tsp 3x daily

Restoring collagenous structures: Great Lakes collagen powder, 1 Tbsp daily (or a combination of pea protein powder, 2 Tbsp daily, and l-glycine and l-proline for vegetarians); vitamin C, 1000-3000 mg daily; selenium, 200 mcg daily

Immune remodulation:
Cat’s claw tincture, 1/4-1/2 tsp 3x daily; Cordyceps tincture, 1/2-1 tsp 3x daily; Ashwagandha tincture, 1/4 tsp 3x daily; Eleutherococcus tincture, 1/2 tsp 3x daily (1:5 formula); Licorice root tincture, 1/4 tsp 3x daily

Antispirochetal:
Andrographis (begin with a small dose and work up; check side effects of herb because unpleasant allergic reactions can occur) 1/4 tsp 3x daily if using the tincture version.
Neuroborreliosis: Gou Teng tincture, 1/2-1 tsp 3-6x daily, depending on severity of brain infection
Extended Repertory


For Tick Borne Relapsing Fever:
add Sida acuta, 5-40 drops 3x daily; Milk thistle seed, standardized, 1200 mg 3x daily; and EGCG and Quercetin
For herxheimer reactions: zeolite, activated charcoal, chlorella, green clay (internally), fruit pectin, epsom salt baths, and/or castor oil packs on liver, daily; food-grade diatomaceous earth for herx reactions in GI tract

Sorry to keep asking questions, as sida acuta is almost intolerable to me, is there anything I can substitute it with I'm wondering hmmmm....sida is potent and works for all is the problem.
Posted 7/23/2021 5:11 PM (GMT -5)
I would do the other herbs - especially Japanese knotweed and hopefully it’s effective without the Sida.
I’m thinking there’s enough herbs listed that eliminating the Sida should be ok.
Cats claw is listed.

Anyone else reading thi know about a substitution for the Sida ?
Posted 7/24/2021 4:51 AM (GMT -5)
my own feeling is its often exactly the things that we react strongest to that actually have the biggest impact on the disease - the problem is we are often just too weak or sensitive to tolerate them in any amount

my own approach has been slow and long for this reason - starting with tiny amounts and working my way up - anything more than a few drops of sida would cause strong herx reactions initially - and it took me over 1 year to build up but am now at buhners full dose and tolerating it - which is over 40x the amount i started at so it does seem you can build up over time

but as girlie suggests - i did start first with the immune regulating herbs for a good few months before adding the strong direct antimicrobial ones like sida - it may be that these immune modulating herbs once stabilised help reduce general cytokine storm type effects and therefore help subdue "herx like effects"

alternatively - Cryptolepis is a similar very broad acting strong antimicrobial - though to be active for spirochetes to some degree - according to some of the Zhangs studies - and buhner has been known to recommend it for lyme affecting the gut - so seems like a good choice for TBRF also ( another spirochete)

however, this also causes me to have strong herx like reactions - but perhaps its another option to try.
again, since you are reacting strongly to any powerful antimicrobial, you will likely need to build up slowly - and still expect some herx like effects
Posted 7/24/2021 7:10 AM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
my own feeling is its often exactly the things that we react strongest to that actually have the biggest impact on the disease - the problem is we are often just too weak or sensitive to tolerate them in any amount

my own approach has been slow and long for this reason - starting with tiny amounts and working my way up - anything more than a few drops of sida would cause strong herx reactions initially - and it took me over 1 year to build up but am now at buhners full dose and tolerating it - which is over 40x the amount i started at so it does seem you can build up over time

but as girlie suggests - i did start first with the immune regulating herbs for a good few months before adding the strong direct antimicrobial ones like sida - it may be that these immune modulating herbs once stabilised help reduce general cytokine storm type effects and therefore help subdue "herx like effects"

alternatively - Cryptolepis is a similar very broad acting strong antimicrobial - though to be active for spirochetes to some degree - according to some of the Zhangs studies - and buhner has been known to recommend it for lyme affecting the gut - so seems like a good choice for TBRF also ( another spirochete)

however, this also causes me to have strong herx like reactions - but perhaps its another option to try.
again, since you are reacting strongly to any powerful antimicrobial, you will likely need to build up slowly - and still expect some herx like effects



What would u do if u cant even tolerate 1 drop?! That's me. I'm worried if I take antibiotics, it won't be as effective since I've had these infections for like 20 years already, plus the bacteria change shape and form, bt I do plan to add herbs at some point. The herx from antibiotics lasted lots longer than with herb slol
Posted 7/25/2021 10:32 AM (GMT -5)
2 possible ways forward if you wish to go the herbal route

1, put 1 drop in a glass of water and consume around 1/10th to 1/5th and see how you go
if manageable work up from there - but i would in any case not go for killing herbs if you are so reactive - but start on the immune modulating ones for a few months first to help dampen down the hyper reactivity

2, try to work out why you are reacting so severely - its very unlikely these doses are killing anything - so it would seem to be some kind of immune mediated reaction - could it be MCAS or similar ? and try to find and dampen it down before proceeding

btw. to me, many herx like effects do not fit with the commonly accepted explanation of bacterial toxins from pathogens causing inflammation. your extreme reaction to 1 drop is an example where that doesn't seem to fit well.
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