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Buhner protocol making condition worse: Herx or autoimmunity?

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Posted 11/15/2021 12:12 PM (GMT -5)
I've been ramping up on Buhner herbs to see what kind of response I get. Even six years into this illness I can't really distinguish the difference between herxing (if that even exists for me anymore) vs immune flares.

Here is what I'm taking:

JK
Cat's Claw
Chinese Skullcap
Hottunyia
Sida Acuta
Reishi
Cordyceps
Milk thistle
Hawthorn

I think I notice an increase in symptoms after taking all the herbs in big doses. Increased joint pain makes me nervous I'm hurting myself. Joint pain isn't the only symptom but one that sticks out.

I've read previously that Cat's Claw is suspected to possibly be detrimental for those with an autoimmune element. Also, I've been taking JK for a few months and worked my dosage up slowly. I'm now on the max dose Buhner recommends (1tbsp, 3x a day), but haven't noticed much benefit. Saturday night I took some big doses of all my herbs to see what would happen. The result was intense systemic systems. My chest pain (which might be nerve related) reared it's ugly head fiercely.

I wonder if anybody has tried removing JK and cat's claw, and stuck to the antimicrobials and adaptogens? Chinese skullcap, Milk thistle, and Hawthorn doesn't seem to be an issue.

After reading an old thread about Lyme and autoimmunity I'm wondering if I should change up my strategy to focus on calming the overactive immune system more. I'm wondering if something like Ozone, which claims anti-inflammatory and immunomodulating properties on top of antimicrobial properties, along with a strict diet/fasting could be a way to try to gain control of my out of control systemic systems. Also, I wonder if something like Bee venom works so well for some people not by it's killing effect, but it's strong anti-inflammatory effect and immune (and I admit this is speculative) "re-training" effect? My LLMD believes that BVT works in an immune modulating way.
Posted 11/15/2021 2:08 PM (GMT -5)
i think the strong herx like symptoms are likely from Sida and Houttuynia - at least i know they are for me

poss mild ones from skullcap, cats claw, knotweed and maybe hawthorn - but when i have added them separately i can increase the doses of those much faster

sida, houttuynia cryptolepis, alchornea, teasel, berberine containing herbs like mahonia or berberis - ( all strongly antimicrobial herbs with doses in the 20-60 drops range ) cause immediate and strong flares for me - much stronger than abx like doxy, azithro, rifampicin in my case.

something about herbs seem to induce greater herx reactions for many people - but its not clear why that is.
only speculation exists because we do not know for sure what cases these long lasting herx like reactions in chronic lyme in the first instance - again only theories exist - toxins, blebbing, immune stimulation etc etc
until we know that i don't think we will be able to answer the former.

it could simply be that all available pharma ABX have gone through screening processes that would have removed candidates that made lab animals obviously sick with herx like reactions - so they are comparatively benign to the host vs unscreened natural products. but again its conjecture.

on other related observation was that i had one of the strongest "herxes" ever when i took a moderate dose of a berberine herb. this was interesting to me because berberine is very poorly absorbed and so is used almost exclusively as an antimicrobial acting in the gut. at the dose i took there really should not have been any strong antimicrobial effect. so is herx like reaction really generated in the gut? Perhaps by an over reaction by the host to the normal bacteria in the gut ( berberine is pretty broad spectrum and would kill a significant number of them) leading to more bacterial debris, fragments and waste products in the gut. interesting but not conclusive.

i have found that with the strong antimicrobial herbs - that by starting with tiny doses and stepping up in less than around 5% increments over the weeks i was able to increase my dose to max buhner doses without experiencing severe herx like reactions - and that this does seem to work in terms of symptom reduction - but it obviously took some time.
Posted 11/15/2021 2:45 PM (GMT -5)
Thanks for the input Garzine.

Interesting ideas about the gut. I've noticed my symptoms can still be there when I'm not having an increased gut reaction. However, my gut is always involved when my symptoms intensify greatly. Loose stools, diarrhea, no appetite, anything I eat makes it worse, constant burping, constant stomach rumbling. There is a connection.

How long have you been taking Sida and Hottunyia? What dosage are you on?
Posted 11/15/2021 2:54 PM (GMT -5)
hi Lymie

A good while now - will double check -

started v low doses( all i could tolerate) mid 2019 - reached more or less target doses April 2021

am doing a combination of all the Buhner Lyme herbs ( i started these first )
and the following co-infection herbs ( number to the right is the dose in ml 4x per day - ie total mahonia is 8ml / day )

bartonella / coinfection herbs
Mahonia 1:5 tincture 2.0 (a berberine containing herb)
Houttuynia 1:5 tincture 2.8
Sida acuta 1:5 tncture 1.0
Teasel root 1:3 tincture 0.8
Alchornea leaf 1:5 tincture 1.2
Cryptolepis root 1:5 tincture 1.0

improvements were gradual along the way - possibly faster since reaching the higher doses - but doing other things alongside also - like ivermectin and LDN for immune modulation

also added Methylene Blue for bartonella - to try and move things forward a bit faster

Post Edited (Garzie) : 11/15/2021 12:57:46 PM (GMT-7)

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