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Azithromycin + Methylene blue for Bart

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Posted 5/12/2022 1:35 PM (GMT -5)
Has anyone tried Azithromycin + Methylene blue for Bart? How did it work?


Does Azithromycin and Methylene blue work against borrelia too?



Thanks
Posted 5/13/2022 5:44 AM (GMT -5)
both have some activity against borrelia - though seem more targeted against bart ( ref Zhang etc al )

i have taken both but not at the same time - azithro on its own was relatively easy to tolerate - MB on its own i had to build up very gradually du to herx effects

the issue is borrelia have mechanisms of persistence that make them much harder to treat with all existing abx in general - this seems an under recognised fact that is ultimately at the root of all the long and complex multi-drug treatment protocols

this is in the order of needing drug concentrations 100's of times higher than more conventional bacteria

when this is not practical we resort to multiple drug combinations and long treatment durations but even here typically we struggle to get tissue concentrations that are fully bactericidal.
Posted 5/13/2022 9:19 AM (GMT -5)
I found that bartonella was resistant to azithromycin and clarithromycin, but that could be overcome by taking atovaquone with it. I recall that another forum member was experimenting with metformin as a way to overcome antibiotic resistance.
Posted 5/13/2022 9:51 AM (GMT -5)
there are some reports of bart in the wild/farm animals becoming resistant to azithromycin - presumably due to the excessive use in agriculture

the majority of cases are still thought to respond to macrolides - just v slowly in most patients once its become chronic -this seems to be more to do with persister cell behaviour and immune system suppression than true antibiotic resistance genes in most cases
Posted 5/13/2022 7:54 PM (GMT -5)
There are definitely antibiotic resistant strains out there, and I got one. Just unlucky I guess.

Ultimately I treated it with minocycline, which it was not resistant to.
Posted 5/14/2022 9:54 AM (GMT -5)

newuser22 said...
Has anyone tried Azithromycin + Methylene blue for Bart? How did it work?

Does Azithromycin and Methylene blue work against borrelia too?

Thanks

I have taken both at the same time, along with Buhner herbs. It's definitely not as effective as on petri dish. Don't think it has done much long term. Some mild improvement and pretty much plateaued after several weeks.
Posted 5/14/2022 10:02 AM (GMT -5)
i think the slow response to abx - pretty much all of them except perhaps the true bactericidal ones like gentamycin and maybe high dose dapsone - is probably due to the combination of persister cell behaviour of bart and the fact that its mostly inside cells most of the time - and so these abx are probably only able to work as it cycles out of the cells and into the blood stream from time to time.
so if the abx cannot kill it inside cells - then we can only chip away at it slowly over time - this is of course still a valid treatment approach - just a slow one - when we all want to be cured tomorrow.

the other side of the coin is a lot of patients could not in any case tolerate the herx even if there were drugs that could kill it all in a few days - so maybe slow and steady is the only way

many patients on the breaking down bartonella fb group seem to report very slow response to macrolides - or macrolides and rifampicin's - but gradual improvement after a few months in

often there seems to be a trend where the T-labs or galaxy PCR blood tests go negative long before the patients symptoms improve much - perhaps indicating bart is still acting on other parts of the body even though the blood is now relatively clear.

its a complex beast
Posted 5/14/2022 5:44 PM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
so if the abx cannot kill it inside cells - then we can only chip away at it slowly over time - this is of course still a valid treatment approach - just a slow one - when we all want to be cured tomorrow.

the other side of the coin is a lot of patients could not in any case tolerate the herx even if there were drugs that could kill it all in a few days - so maybe slow and steady is the only way

I've read some reports of people trying to go really quick with ingesting Barto-cidal essential oils and landing in ER with life threatening Herx. Going too fast might cause septic shock and it's game over.
Posted 5/14/2022 9:09 PM (GMT -5)
There are some drug combos that kill bart quickly. It does cause a nasty herx.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4289700&g=4289742#m4289742
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