Gut health - interesting new article from Yale

this story was posted by Dr H in his FB page a few days ago

its interesting to me - as so many here report gut issues and suspect they have leaky gut.

the study seems to be saying that people with leaky gut have many small communities of pathogenic bacteria from the gut that set up cam in other organs in the body and contribute to illness and especially auto-immunity

this aligns quite well with the recent post here about a possible newly discovered mechanism causing Chronic Fatigue syndrome - one of bacterial communities in the kidneys - fatigue also being one of the main symptoms reported by many members here.

it makes me wonder if the multi antibiotic regiment employed by many top Lyme docs are actually treating these widely distributed diverse bacterial infections - not just Lyme et al - and that this may in fact be the driver for recovery in some / many people

story below

and link to story - but i don't have a link to the science paper itself yet

"In a new study published July 13, Palm and a team of Yale scientists offer new insights into this mystery. Writing in the journal Nature, they describe how gut bacteria can evolve over time, becoming more pathogenic by gaining the ability to migrate across the gut barrier and persist in organs outside of the intestine, thereby driving chronic inflammation and associated pathologies...Unlike traditional pathogens that prompt rapid immune clearance, these small colonies of relocated bacteria remain semi-hidden in organs and can avoid the attention of the immune system—at least temporarily. However, the authors found that their presence over time can eventually trigger inflammatory pathologies such as autoimmune diseases. This phenomenon may at least partially explain why some people with potentially pathogenic bacteria never get sick, but why the risk of illness increases with age, the researchers say."

thought it might be of interest to people here
https://news.yale.edu/2022/07/13/how-gut-microbes-can-evolve-and-become-dangerous

Vimzor said...
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361974172_within-host_evolution_of_a_gut_pathobiont_facilitates_liver_translocation
It's this one I think.
I've emailed the author to ask for a copy. It's not on scihub yet.

well done Vimzor

link is a little broken though

this one should work
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361974172_within-host_evolution_of_a_gut_pathobiont_facilitates_liver_translocation

i have asked the authors for a copy also - will post update if i get one

please do the same

cheers!

Thanks for that information. I've mentioned this before, but there is no doubt whenever I feel worse, my gut is worse right there with it. Fatigue comes with more discomfort. Same with migraines or being off balance. No doubt strong ties.

running wild said...
Thanks for that information. I've mentioned this before, but there is no doubt whenever I feel worse, my gut is worse right there with it. Fatigue comes with more discomfort. Same with migraines or being off balance. No doubt strong ties.

yep - i suspect a good deal of the symptoms experienced in Lyme/bart / autoimmune etc are mediated by interactions between the immune system and things in the gut.

would be great if we could understand exactly what these interactions are and what to do about them - other than the general stuff which is good for most people and their gut
-low stress
-moderate exercise
-real food
-etc
i have no found much by way of supplements or other interventions that seem to help with this gut disturbance issue - and mine is more upset than usual after a viral illness has caused a flare in gut symptoms - which as you say drives systemic symptoms

i think Betaine HCL helps a little - perhaps by improving digestion by lowering stomach pH and the increased acid allowing breakdown of more proteins from food ( which are antigens and so tend to be irritating to the immune system) - but the effect is mild even at 3 x 650mg per meal

eating even less carbs and veg than usual seem to help a little also - but i am already eating less than i would like for optimum health long term - and it doesn't seem to be a cure as such - just feeds the bugs less - so i think gives the immune system less of a load to handle

walking in nature - seems to settle it down a little when its at its most upset - possibly just the walking speeding up the peristaltic / self cleaning motion of the gut - something that gets damaged in SIBO / chronic illness

i haven't really found anything that can intervene and calm it down as a supplement or treatment - keep meaning to try quercetin in case its mast cell stabilising effects could help

similarly i keep meaning to look into cromolyn sodium - as its another mast cell stabiliser - in case that's a mechanism that might help - but wasn't sure if i could get it easily

not sure what other routes to try
- probiotics tend to make things worse
- prebiotics defo make things worse
- more fibre - also makes things worse

someone here has suggested anti-histamines seem to help them somewhat - but i'm not sure of the mechanism there

open to other suggestions

i looked into it a while ago

works like a miracle cure for some
but some are made much worse by it also - including auto-immune disease - and just worse overall symptoms than they and before.
these cases are not well publicized because almost all FMT are done in private clinics and they don't want the bad press - but it seems like its not a small number

bit of a lottery it seems

MargaritaLyme said...
The researcher who unlocks the mystery of why a multi antibiotic approach is not the solution for a significant number of chronically I’ll will have my undivided attention.

there are already several valid answers
- persister cells
- biofilms
- intracellular infection
- immune suppression

but its not binary - woks / doesn't work

antibiotics kill the majority of bacteria in most places in most of these infections - despite the above mechanisms.

the problem is if you don't kill every single last bacteria - esp is the host immune response is suppressed - these few survivors seed a new population that may grow back - hence you have treatment failures

what we need are antibiotic regimes that kill every last bacteria - something absolute.
that's not how antibiotics normally work
normally, in acute infections, they just kill enough that your immune system can take over and finish the job
this doesn't work well in infections that are already good at avoiding the immune response - eg chronic infections.

Post Edited (Garzie) : 7/20/2022 11:03:16 AM (GMT-7)

a very complex area we are only just starting to understand i think ML

for sure some of it will be genetically predisposed
then there are the immune conditioning / immune learned parts of the equation
and broader epigenetic mechanisms that upregulate or down regulate any of the human responses

you could put all of this under the heading of "immune dysregulation"
which covers anything that is immune mediated and not good for the host - but are often inflammatory in nature. inflammation itself dysregulates the immune system - so there is potential here for a positive reinforcement loop.

i suspect auto-immunity factors into many of these reactions also - even if not a named auto-immune disease - but auto-antibodies to tissues or self proteins in the body

there are also a couple of papers detailing how powerful and long lasting herx type reactions after antibiotics are in fact caused, not by "bacterial toxins" as had long been assumed - but by macrophages consuming damaged but not dead bacteria - and this causes them to release huge amounts of inflammatory cytokines for a surprisingly long time afterward - which then produce the recognisable herx type effects

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3477209&p=3 https

Garzie said...
i remember that thread

🤣🤣👍

It's a real roller coaster of a thread. It's got poop, donors, worms, people arguing...

Garzie,

Where did you read about negative experiences not being reported because they were in private clinics?

FMT has fascinated me since I've heard about it. I've had gut issues ranging back to when I was a kid. I use to tell my high school culinary arts teacher I had leave class cause I had IBS. I was joking, but I often had stomach issues. Painful poops where the gas makes you bend over and writhe in pain on the toilet. I would be scared of being out places I wasn't familiar with because my stomach would "drop", making gurgle noises, out of nowhere and if I didn't find a bathroom within minutes after that "drop" I was diarrheaing on myself.

I used to think I was simply different than other kids, but now that I'm older and more health knowledgable, due to illness, I see that is was likely from the SAD (Standard American Diet). I mean I was a full on middle class kid. I ate sugary cereal every morning washed down with a banana. I snacked on salty and sugary snacks constantly. I would binge drink can "pink lemonade" that were basically sugar drinks along with sprite.

I wonder sometimes if this made me more susceptible to chronic illness after I got the tick bite. Before I got my tick bite I always felt that other people my age at the time (20s) had noticeably more energy than me. I would always just push through. I tried this with Lyme and it didn't work lol.

My issue with FMT is 1. gross lol. 2. Poop is associated with disease. 3. Is there good evidence? What if you used your significant other as the donor? Would that make it safer? This is a gross thought. Forewarning.

My wife and I have been together nearly 8 years. I wonder if at some point some bacteria from poop or poop residue has accidentally got into one each other's mouths. Would that mean that what is inside my significant other's poop should be fine for me? I don't even know if that question makes sense. Just trying to reason it out.

Post Edited (Lymie24) : 7/21/2022 10:59:22 AM (GMT-7)

Thanks Girlie for posting a link to that old thread. I had never seen that before.

I have been intrigued by FMT ever since I heard about it. I would definitely consider doing it if I had a proper donor. I don’t know anyone who I think is really healthy, and these days I don’t have much of anyone I am close to.

I have used all sorts of high end probiotics for many years now, and they have never altered my gut function or improved my health in any detectable way. I recently order EM-1 to use on my plants and ordered their human product too, which is a probiotic. I have been a little scared to try it, but I think I might do it this week.

The only thing missing from that thread is what specific tests and labs were used to screen the donor.