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Autoimmune Thyroiditis Induced by Bartonella henselae Might Be Reversible

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Posted 7/25/2022 6:04 AM (GMT -5)
Published last Friday:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35871515/

I think people have been saying that on here before. Probably some LLMD's too.
Posted 7/25/2022 7:10 AM (GMT -5)
that's an interesting one Rainy - many have long suspected - will defo have a read

i read the other day that it pretty much depends on how much damage has been done to the thyroid gland tissue by the auto-immune process over time - and thats there something called End Stage Hashimotos - where basically all of the thyroid tissue has been destroyed - and then even if all autoimmune processes stop - you still do not have enough of the gland left to do its job

however when i looked into the "full replacement dose" of thyroxine(T4) or of T3 - it was way more than most with hashimotos are taking - so i think the majority still have a good portion of the thyroid still working.

will try to find that info and post it
Posted 7/25/2022 10:25 AM (GMT -5)
There’s always hope for newbies who catch this earlier.

My endocrinologist was explaining to me the simple fact that it all depends on how much thyroid tissue was damaged. The gland itself gets deformed beyond inflammation.

A full thyroid dose for someone who is 100% dependent on replacement thyroid hormone can vary as well. This is noted by people whove had their thyroid radiated, in cases of thyroid cancer.
Posted 7/25/2022 12:57 PM (GMT -5)
Have any of you fellow autothyroid guys and gals been able to reduce your thyroxine dose either during or after treating infections?
Posted 7/25/2022 1:37 PM (GMT -5)
"Have any of you fellow autothyroid guys and gals been able to reduce your thyroxine dose either during or after treating infections?"

(Quote and edit feature is gone right now lol)

Some past members with hypothyroid did, not sure if they had hashi autoimmune though- not all test this, but they should.

Mine was pretty far gone by that point per imaging. It looks like stepped on smushed Swiss cheese.

One year after last ABX, my thyroid was unchanged. Then I went 100%G/F and antibodies improved (one went normal) and med went down. Nodual/tumour fell apart, 100% gone after it was there for 10 years. Now my med dose just went up again a little. Could be med though.

———/———-

(NP brand natural thyroid quality is not like it used to be. Two recalls in last two years on certain lots discovered after the public was using it. Lame quality testing. Armour is not much better I guess anymore and has more than quadrippled in price in last five years though).

New lazy endo says another antibody test is no longer needed for me, (BS). Endos dont care about the total body. Only care about Rxing meds. My new one is stubborn idiot vs last one who retired. Im tired of "training" him lol.

Post Edited (astroman) : 7/25/2022 8:00:51 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 7/25/2022 8:29 PM (GMT -5)
Endocrinologists are happy if TSH, FT3 and 4 are within range -end of story. I am on a lower dose of levothyroxine since treating Lyme. Hoping thyroid likes treatment and ridiculously restricted diet.

Sorry about your Swiss cheese thyroid. I have never had mine scanned. I could be in the same shape.

Maybe what I don’t know won’t hurt me.
Posted 7/25/2022 10:31 PM (GMT -5)
Rainy C, Thanks for posting. I’m envious of that 4 year old. Sure wish my vartonella had been caught 50 years ago. Oh well,better late than never. LOL.
Posted 7/26/2022 6:47 AM (GMT -5)
You're very welcome MargaritaLyme 🙂
Maybe because you only need a low dose, there might be a good outlook for you without thyroid meds - once you recover from Lyme!
Posted 7/26/2022 6:49 AM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
however when i looked into the "full replacement dose" of thyroxine(T4) or of T3 - it was way more than most with hashimotos are taking - so i think the majority still have a good portion of the thyroid still working.

will try to find that info and post it

This is really interesting Garzie!
Posted 7/26/2022 7:55 AM (GMT -5)
from my reading into the topic - the full replacement dose - when taken orally - for people who have had their thyroid removed is typically
T4 260mcg
T3 80mcg

of course - because the route is oral - and absorption varies from individual to individual (esp of T4) - and is influenced by gut health, diet etc, as well as variations in body weight etc - these will not be the same for everyone -

i think this gives us some cause for encouragement that even those with hashimotos and taking 100+mg of T4 orally - are likely to have a decent portion of their natural thyroid function intact
Posted 7/26/2022 1:21 PM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
from my reading into the topic - the full replacement dose - when taken orally - for people who have had their thyroid removed is typically
T4 260mcg
T3 80mcg

of course - because the route is oral - and absorption varies from individual to individual (esp of T4) - and is influenced by gut health, diet etc, as well as variations in body weight etc - these will not be the same for everyone -

i think this gives us some cause for encouragement that even those with hashimotos and taking 100+mg of T4 orally - are likely to have a decent portion of their natural thyroid function intact

Hmmm.

Well I take 150mg of natural thyroid daily. It seems to work best taken sublingualy with a rinsed out mouth (no proteins). Thats kind of a lot, but some people take more. Some a lot more. I'm a mid weight at 170lbs / 6ft.

Ill do the simple math conversion later unless someone else beats me to it.

NP brand has the same t3/t4 ratios as Armour brand and all natural brands are always in MG not mcg.
Posted 7/26/2022 2:56 PM (GMT -5)
I have a finicky thyroid. . It likes to do its own thing. Last test showed suppressed TSH despite normal T3 and 4. Family doc said to drop med from 112 mcg to 100 mcg. Humorously naturopath disagreed. I chose to drop the dose.

Can’t wait to see next labs.
Posted 7/26/2022 5:58 PM (GMT -5)

astroman said...


Hmmm.

Well I take 150mg of natural thyroid daily. It seems to work best taken sublingualy with a rinsed out mouth (no proteins). Thats kind of a lot, but some people take more. Some a lot more. I'm a mid weight at 170lbs / 6ft.

Ill do the simple math conversion later unless someone else beats me to it.

NP brand has the same t3/t4 ratios as Armour brand and all natural brands are always in MG not mcg.

the t3 and t4 doses above are in micrograms Astro

desiccated animal thyroid tissue will be dosed differently - based on the weight of freeze dried organ in there i think
my guess is there is some known approximate rule of thumb for how much t3 and t4 should be in there - but it definitely will not be like for like with the pharma drugs - as they are dosed by weight of the pure hormone in them.
Posted 7/27/2022 12:22 PM (GMT -5)
NP Thyroid (thyroid tablets, USP) for oral use is a natural preparation derived from porcine thyroid glands:

1 "grain" (60mg) size thyroid pill = 38 mcg levothyroxine (T4) and 9 mcg liothyronine (T3);
plus fillers that keep it together. All US sold pig thyroid meds use this ratio.

A "grain" is an old school wild west days of measuring medication. Thats how old NDT is, when it was made/invented by the Armour meat/ slaughtering company.

One "grain" of NDT is one 60mg pill. A two grain is one 120mg pill and so on. Half grain is 30mg. You can split them with pill splitter and/or add together to make your daily dose vs having one pill that is your dose (they dont make many NDT sizes).

(One old school grain of Aspirin = todays 325mcg aspirin pill). Thats why its that size.

-------------------------------------------------

So in my case, daily amount of T4 in my blood: 38 mcg x 2.5 pills = 95mcg

Daily T3 in my blood would be: 9mcg x 2.5 pills = 22.5mcg

.

Post Edited (astroman) : 7/27/2022 12:07:31 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 7/27/2022 12:40 PM (GMT -5)
v similar to my doses astro

i am using 100mcg T4 ( levothyroxine sodium) / 37.5mcg T3 LIOTHYRONINE SODIUM ( indicated dose see below)

but the T3 brand i am using is Tiromel - which - as per the info that Rainy kindly sent me - though sold as 25mcg tablets - when independently tested these turned out to be more like 16mg of T3 per 25mcg tablet - so my real numbers are more like

100mcg T4 / 24mcg T3

this seems to work well enough - my labs are consistent at this dose for the last year or so
Posted 7/27/2022 11:48 PM (GMT -5)

Garzie said...
from my reading into the topic - the full replacement dose - when taken orally - for people who have had their thyroid removed is typically
T4 260mcg
T3 80mcg

of course - because the route is oral - and absorption varies from individual to individual (esp of T4) - and is influenced by gut health, diet etc, as well as variations in body weight etc - these will not be the same for everyone -

i think this gives us some cause for encouragement that even those with hashimotos and taking 100+mg of T4 orally - are likely to have a decent portion of their natural thyroid function intact

Thank you Garzie! Very interesting.
Posted 8/3/2022 10:04 AM (GMT -5)
I requested the entire study several days ago, and someone with access to academic journals was kind enough to send it to me (Thank you!!) :

Here it is, some very interesting pictures of the thyroid when you scroll down:

https://ibb.co/hcfv151
Posted 8/3/2022 12:04 PM (GMT -5)

MargaritaLyme said...
Endocrinologists are happy if TSH, FT3 and 4 are within range -end of story.

Yup. My husband feels better when he takes a bit extra to what he has been prescribed.
But because he is in “range “ the docs won’t give him a script for that amount.
Posted 8/3/2022 2:09 PM (GMT -5)
Girlie, That is really interesting about your hubby. Does he take levothyroxine? Does he take an extra half or whole pill one day each week? Or is he taking a combo product?

I can understand why he feels better on a slight increase. I seem to be really sensitive to changes in my dosage. I should have held my dose at 107 mcg for a few months instead of dropping to 100. I am due for a blood test but think my thyroid is off as I feel like crap.
Posted 8/3/2022 2:22 PM (GMT -5)
"But because he is in “range“ the docs won’t give him a script for that amount."

The thyroid range is like a light dimmer switch. Its still "on" when low.....but its still LOW!!!!!

My new thyroid Dr did this to me. I said I'll have hypo symptoms. He did not believe me.

Then I went hypo in symptoms which cost me my health and more Dr appt$. Then he upped the dose to where it was.

What a waste of time. sigh......
Posted 8/3/2022 2:42 PM (GMT -5)
P.S. I should have added that I am also treating Bartonella so that is probably the greater influence in how high am currently feeling.
Posted 8/3/2022 3:04 PM (GMT -5)
Yep totally ridiculous. Endocrinology is another field where patients get let down. I had it worked out so that I was taking two different dosages in a week alternating days. It worked out to be 107 MCG‘s. My clueless doctor didn’t like the looks of my suppressed TSH and said to drop the dose to 100 MCG‘s. I probably should not have listened. I knew better.

I seriously wonder how well we metabolize this stuff?
Posted 8/3/2022 3:24 PM (GMT -5)
I believe much more precision should be granted to us thyroid peeps when concocting medicinal support. Taking thyroid support is a one size fits all approach.
Posted 8/3/2022 4:32 PM (GMT -5)
Well, they're prob afraid of people going hyper.

If that seems to happen, you just stop taking thyroid med / replacement (edit: for a day or two) and get levels tested. But they never tell people that and prefer to keep them slightly hypo.

The t3 / t4 free level tests only measure whats available in your blood. It does not measure whats used. Past tests tried to do this but failed in accuracy. total and uptake are old unaccurate tests.

A body under stress may not use the available thyroid sufficiently and this can show up in a reverse t3 test....but most Drs are unaware of this or refuse to do it.

Post Edited (astroman) : 8/3/2022 3:52:21 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 8/3/2022 5:23 PM (GMT -5)
Um…yeah…going off thyroid hormone (Armour at that time) didn’t work out so well for me. I landed in Univ of MI ER with a TSH of 141. Yep you read that right. Did I mention my sensitive thyroid? lOL.

Just more evidence that infections have been lurking in the background wreaking havoc on the power train.
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