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Posted 7/20/2011 2:36 PM (GMT -5)
I think it is a perfectly reasonable policy.

(My 2 cents - or 1.00 Rupee) .
Posted 7/20/2011 3:07 PM (GMT -5)
Don't do it.

Don't limit the open discussion of options available for the folks here to purchase the prescription drugs they need. You could post a sticky (or whatever you call them) that has recommendations on how to avoid fraud, that would be great. But don't stop folks from openly discussing the good and bad experiences they've had with individual providers. Some seeking information may wish to maintain their anonymity and not become involved in personal e-mails/PM's.

As far as the legality goes, I guess it is a question we need to ask ourselves. What makes more sense (or is more ethical), allowing information to be available that might really help a fellow in bad financial situation, or worrying over a law (or regulation) that is not really enforced? I'll go with the fellow in need.
Posted 7/20/2011 5:14 PM (GMT -5)
Laws aren't meant to be a la carte, to be chosen as one see fits, something is either legal or its not. Not sure why that part is so hard to understand.
Posted 7/20/2011 5:41 PM (GMT -5)
Paralleli,
There might be a misunderstanding here. The discussion on getting drugs overseas is not being limited in any way except one ~ the sharing of website names and links can be privately done. it's certainly ok to discuss the options we're just asking to do so without endorsing specific sites in forum. I certainly agree that there are steps a perspective buyer can take to limit their vulnerability. But unless you have followed these conversations a new member can easily fail to see the danger signs. A sticky is almost the same thing as endorsing the action. So we'll probably skip that.

What I hope for is that when someone enquires about such things that we offer to help them off forum with specific sites and certainly you can share your experience in the forum. Simply put HW does not condone or endorse these sites. We have seen even what we would have called the "safest" site fail to ship accurately, ship outdated drugs, or become vulnerable to security issues. Now that's great stuff to share. We can tell folks that most cases are good experiences but caution is very wise.

Everything else about it is still wide open...

Tony
Posted 7/20/2011 5:43 PM (GMT -5)
Hope 1 when was your card hacked? Sounds like after the stated time frame...

Tony
Posted 7/20/2011 5:44 PM (GMT -5)
Like or not, one will do what one has to do in order to survive in this world.

If the owners of this site wish to proceed with the ban of certain links or discussions of certain subjects, they have every right to do so.  I am a guest here, so if the door is open for some subjects and closed to others, I will probably adjust and be repentant for being a law-breaker. nono

Posted 7/20/2011 6:57 PM (GMT -5)
I suggest that instead of banning the names of certain companies in the posts themselves, that the moderators create a sticky thread titled "The Risks of Buying Prescription from Out of the U.S." That way people who visit the site are adequately warned, without needing to create a climate of censorship, or suppressing information that some people may actually find useful.

From a legal standpoint, the moderators may want to consider that once they start banning some content, that means they have implicitly decided to approve other content and that could actually end up increasing rather than decreasing the legal exposure of themselves and the board owner. Moderators may want to get real legal advice on this question. Moderators may want to consider whether they have been indemnified by the owner of the board should a problem arise from the content they have chosen (implicitly) to permit.
Posted 7/20/2011 7:45 PM (GMT -5)
We'll re-circle the wagons guys,
But this is not a new policy. We delete spammers all the time and we have to. And once a representative comes to promote a site we delete them and that just happened in our belief. I know that when we share information it's one of the cool things about this site. But seriously. We should have to allow websites that we know has had security issues and poor quality control at times?

If someone wants to do a write up on the issues of doing business with overseas pharmacies, I'll see about adding it to our resources that already has a sticky on it. Let's see if we can arrive at a compromise and get this into the past. We'll definitely see more on this in the future so let's work together to find the best policy.

@Hope 1: The person that I know had the issue did so last week. This may be a circumstance that when they made a purchase in January the card numbers got heisted then and just didn't get used until last week. However they did place another order last week as well shortly before they received the call.

Tony
Posted 7/20/2011 8:55 PM (GMT -5)
Ok, so now we are going to expand having "secret off-limits" topics known only to the moderators. But where does this stop? What else will be censored for the protection of the poor child-like members? Several years ago we went around on the issue of chemical compounds -- cannabinoids, which Lord Peter considers evil versus opioids which can be discussed. Of course neither Lord Peter nor his minions would engage in a real debate of the issue and (I presume) as a result the discussion of some molecular structures is censored without the children (also known as members) ever being the wiser.

At some point of secret censorship this forum becomes useless and I am sad to see it being dragged in this direction.

P.S. I would appreciate it greatly if those who comment on the legality of ordering drugs from abroad would state the providence of their law degree and provide citations to either statute or commentary.
Posted 7/20/2011 9:24 PM (GMT -5)
[quote]Laws aren't meant to be a la carte, to be chosen as one see fits, something is either legal or its not. Not sure why that part is so hard to understand.

Well Purg, it is hard to understand. Like I said, it is an ethical question we all need to ask ourselves. I suppose thinking that all laws/regulations are ethical just by the fact they are laws/regulations is a pretty easy road to take. Some find life more complex than that. If you choose to take the "high road", I suppose you should rat out to the appropriate authority the folks that have had the audacity to order drugs from Canada or other overseas sources. After all, it's legal or not, right? That should be the right thing for you to do, right?

Sorry, not into high horses.........they are to easy to fall off of.

Post Edited (Paralleli) : 7/20/2011 8:27:34 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/20/2011 9:34 PM (GMT -5)
Just my personal opinion, everyone has to make their own choices, live and let live. No high horse intended, never claimed to be pure or holy.
Posted 7/20/2011 10:17 PM (GMT -5)
From the Customs web site:

If a U.S. resident wants to bring in a controlled substance (other than narcotics such as marijuana, cocaine, heroin, or LSD) but does not have a prescription for the substance issued by a U.S.-licensed practitioner (e.g., physician, dentist, etc.) who is registered with, and authorized by, the Drug Enforcement Administration to prescribe the medication, the individual may not import more than 50 dosage units of the medication into the United States. If the U.S. resident has a prescription for the controlled substance issued by a DEA registrant, more than 50 dosage units may be imported by that person, provided all other legal requirements are met.

Please note that only medications that can be legally prescribed in the United States may be imported for personal use. Be aware that possession of certain substances may also violate state laws. As a general rule, the FDA does not allow the importation of prescription drugs that were purchased outside the United States. Please see their Web site for information about the enforcement policy for personal use quantities.

Warning: The U.S. Food and Drug Administration prohibits the importation, by mail or in person, of fraudulent prescription and nonprescription drugs and medical devices. These include unorthodox “cures” for such medical conditions as cancer, AIDS, arthritis or multiple sclerosis. Although such drugs or devices may be legal elsewhere, if the FDA has not approved them for use in the United States, they may not legally enter the country and will be confiscated, even if they were obtained under a foreign physician’s prescription.

Additional information about traveling with and importing medication can be found at the FDA's Drugs page.

Posted 7/20/2011 10:39 PM (GMT -5)
More quotes from the FDA

http://www.fda.gov/ForIndustry/ImportProgram/ucm173743.htm

The U.S. Customs Service enforces Federal laws and regulations, including those of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

The United States Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. sections 331(d), and 355(a)), which is administered by FDA, prohibits the interstate shipment (which includes importation) of unapproved new drugs. Unapproved new drugs are any drugs, including foreign-made versions of U.S. approved drugs, that have not received FDA approval to demonstrate they meet the federal requirements for safety and effectiveness. It is the importer's obligation to demonstrate to FDA that any drugs offered for importation have been approved by FDA.

FDA has developed guidance entitled "Coverage of Personal Importations" which sets forth that agency's enforcement priorities with respect to the personal importation of unapproved new drugs by individuals for their personal use. The guidance identifies circumstances in which FDA may consider exercising enforcement discretion and refrain from taking legal action against illegally imported drugs. Those circumstances are as follows:

"1) the intended use [of the drug] is unapproved and for a serious condition for which effective treatment may not be available domestically either through commercial or clinical means;

2) there is no known commercialization or promotion to persons residing in the U.S. by those involved in the distribution of the product at issue;

3) the product is considered not to represent an unreasonable risk;

and

4) the individual seeking to import the product affirms in writing that it is for the patient's own use (generally not more than a 3 month supply) and provides the name and address of the doctor licensed in the U.S. responsible for his or her treatment with the product, or provides evidence that the product is for the continuation of a treatment begun in a foreign country/area." (Emphasis added)

FDA's guidance is not, however, a license for individuals to import unapproved (and therefore illegal) drugs for personal use into the U.S. Even if all of the factors noted in the guidance are present, the drugs remain illegal and FDA may decide that such drugs should be refused entry or seized. The guidance represents FDA's current thinking regarding the issues of personal importation and is intended only to provide operating guidance for FDA personnel. The guidance does not create any legally enforceable rights for the public; nor does it operate to bind FDA or the public.

...... (same page)

  • It is against the law not to properly declare imported medications to U.S. Customs.

  • When the type of drug, the quantity, or the combination of various drugs arouse suspicions, U.S. Customs Inspectors will ordinarily contact the nearest FDA or DEA office for advice and will then make a final determination about whether to release or detain the article. (See 19 U.S.C. 1499).

    • .....

    There are also patent considerations.

    Posted 7/21/2011 12:02 AM (GMT -5)
    great and needed post, 142
    Posted 7/21/2011 9:55 AM (GMT -5)
    Purgatory & 142
    You have made your point over and over again. If you are looking for an argumentative response, many of us might be willing but are not going to be tempted. The best reaction for us is to ignore this topic and move on to more important matters concerning our PC.
    Posted 7/21/2011 10:11 AM (GMT -5)

    Putt - please do ignore the conversation if you're not going to follow it....

    Geezer99 posted the following above:

    P.S. I would appreciate it greatly if those who comment on the legality of ordering drugs from abroad would state the providence of their law degree and provide citations to either statute or commentary.

    142 replied to it idea

    Posted 7/21/2011 10:32 AM (GMT -5)
    My bad.   yeah
    Posted 7/21/2011 11:48 AM (GMT -5)
    Putt,

    Somewhere my comment to you directly was lost.

    I wanted to say that I am in a similar boat as far as how much money and where to spend it. There have been a lot of threads where I've discussed the problems of what insurance doesn't cover - some doctors that are considered stellar, some top-notch medical facilities because they are more than x miles away, some procedures that are standard practice. To give an example, they only pay for 6 cores in a biopsy. Find a good uro who will do just 6 these days -

     

    So there was no offense intended. I understand very well that a $21 price on a Cialis tab is obscene for most of us.

    I didn't want to pull a "good citizen" or "un-american" card. I was just mindful of the many searches I've gone through (as a US Citizen living abroad for many years) where they even checked the "made in" label on my shorts to see if I was properly declaring "foreign made" goods. I've had many bad days in customs.

    I understand your point.

    Posted 7/21/2011 12:22 PM (GMT -5)
    142

    No need to opologize to anyone.  Valid points were made by both sides of the discussion thru healthy debate.  Is not the first time for this discussion nor will it probably be the last.  Thanks for responding.  Good health to all. 

    Posted 7/24/2011 4:04 PM (GMT -5)
    This thread is really long but I wouldn't point the finger at ADC for the credit card fraud. In the last six to nine months, there have been many credit card scammers exploiting a known hole in Windows Xp, Windows 6, Windows 7.

    I had Chase alert me after buying a plane ticket on Expedia and that was only purchase that I had made in months on the card. The Chase fraud team told me that they had seen thousands of fraud cases where the crooks were able to exploit the information saved in the cookies because of this security defect in Windows. If you make a credit card purchase and keep Internet Explorer up for days without re-booting, your cookies are ripe for taking. All the credit card info is saved in the cookies, including the 3 digit security code.  

    I changed two things after my card got hacked. I delete the cookies and all history, then re-boot my PC after making a purchase. I also got McAfee's Total Protection Suite of security tools.

    Have not had an instance of fraud use since....

    Posted 7/24/2011 4:59 PM (GMT -5)
    HB,

    It is good practice to close IE (or whatever browser you use) after any session where you use a significant password (bank, medical, tax, govt. agency) or where you buy something on-line.

    Another big risk is putting a laptop in sleep/hibernate so you can use it quickly later - so can a thief, if he steals it.

    Also, I make a point of storing pdf files that have banking or medical bill info on an external drive, so that I don't have it on the machine I am carrying on the road. That won't work for everyone, but it can be one more "safety" step.

    At least in some of the cases above, the problem was in fact their isp or service company (or at least so they admitted). Granted every person/company that does business online is at risk, but the laws about liability and notification responsibility range from strict and severe to "what, there are laws?"

    Posted 7/24/2011 6:23 PM (GMT -5)
    Tony

    I understand where you are coming from.  However, the real problem is not that your credit card might be hacked.  That can happen anytime you buy online, you should always use a "one time" credit card number to protect yourself.

    It is not because you might receive lesser quality drugs.  My US Rx Medicare company regularly fills my statin and blood pressure prescriptions with meds that are manufactured and shipped from India.

    It is not because it is illegal.  It is, but we are being victimized by the big medical, pharmaceutical and insurance companies.  So in my opinion, we have no other option and should be encouraged to resist their illegal practices. 

    So I assume that you are trying to protect the operators of this website.  That is ok by me and should settle the issue. yeah

    Posted 7/26/2011 3:12 PM (GMT -5)

    Today I completed my second transaction with the company many of you are talking about.

    First of all to inject a little humor here - I just noticed that all 3 tracking numbers they gave me, all started with the letters "ED".  I never noticed it till today but it gave me a good laugh. 

    Is this a conspiracy to make fun of our condition??  Have a laugh if you have the same two letters in your tracking number.   Maybe the US Post office knows what were doing and is having a little fun at our expense!

    I was a little nervous with my second order as it started with an incorrect tracking number.  The customer service rep in his best Indian to English "customer service speak" told me to "take no tension".     Well after a slight delay they got me a new tracking number and my order arrived as promised.

    I think the members here are all adults capable of deciding what type of treatment they should have.  Are we not also capable of deciding the risk/benefit of ordering our meds off shore?  I am very happy with the Cooper brand "Manly" generic Viagra I have received and will continue to buy from them if I need them.  For me it works just fine.

    I know the off shore folks also allow you to pay via e-check for those who want to go that route.

    In an unrelated story, I got a $100 VISA card last night as a gift.  It then dawned on me, those worried about fraud, you can always go to their local bank and buy a VISA gift card to pay their bill with the off shore folks. I imagine the same VISA protections apply but you'll need to look into that if you want to go down that road. 

    As I mentioned this is my second purchase from India.  The first one went off without a hitch.  The second had a minor tracking number mishap but other than that, no credit card issues as of yet and it's been almost 3 weeks since I placed the order.

    Maybe they finally got their act together.  Maybe our HW members need to take more caution.  In either case I think the free flow of information is the ONLY way to go here and let the buyer beware and proceeded accordingly.

     

    My ED is less and less at 21+ months but I sitll take a 1/4 tablet (25mg) every day and plan to do so for at least another year.  With todays delivery  I have at least a 1 year supply so I'm in great shape for a while.  Should I need more in the future I would not hesitate to use the folks offshore unless I see and learn of new developments here on the forum.  For now, I'm a 2 time satisfied customer.

    Mike

    Posted 6/11/2012 7:25 AM (GMT -5)
    I am preparing to order another batch from the above mentioned company. Last time I used a one time use credit card from my bank which cost me nothing except a trip to the bank and all has been good. This is my plan again, but wanted to see if anything has changed as far as quality of drugs, cc fraud or anything new that has popped up. Did a search and could not find anything recent. And lets not rehash what has already been said in this thread, K?
    Posted 6/11/2012 11:26 AM (GMT -5)

    Ziggy9 said...
     First of all all US credit cards agreements that if someone not authorized charges on your cc you are not responsible and I believe some debit cards (which should never be used for these type of transactions) may limit the customer to $50. No time will the customer ever be charged fraudulent charges no matter where or how the cc number is obtained from.

    Thus someone using a one time limited amount credit card is really not risking anything.


    The fact that you state that you would never use that web site shows your bias and dismisses the I'd guess hundreds of men here who have and until recently were very satisfied with the product received. It's the payment that is now in question and can be safely worked around if explained.

     

    I agree...I have had someone illegaly charge my card twice now and both times I called the bank and they credited it back to me...I had to type a small report of the circumstances and sign it.  I have been using a canadian pharmacy but it goes thru India for my levitra and so far no problems at all.  Both times my card was hacked were here in the US.

    ***Edited to avoid banning ziggy for posting insulting remarks. ***

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