New rule change at HW: Medical Marijuana can be discussed

Buddy,

I feel you are mostly arguing with yourself.

The only area that M can be discussed here at HW, is in the context of medical use.

No one is trying to defend either recreational use, or illegal use of the drug. If you live in a state like I do, SC, the whole subject is mute, because even MM is illegal, so it doesn't matter what I think or don't think about it.

For every day PC issues, I don't think MM could ever be justified or prescribed. It's medical uses are pretty limited, and its use does come with some risks, so those have to be weighed against any good that comes out of its use for medical purposes.

Some of the legitimate uses are for severe chronic pain, severe nausea (usually associated with harsh chemo treatments), and there are cases where it helps stabilize patients with extreme epilepsy. So there are indeed proper uses for it in some cases. Also, to increase appetite issues, associated with chemo use and for those that are in a "wasting" state.

But again, no one is suggesting that even if you have a legitimate need, to go out to some pot dealer on the street and buy your "meds". Not at all. To me, the entire context of the subject is legal use, and legally obtained, and legally prescribed.

Even for us that are on long term very strong narcotics for serious chronic pain, there comes a lot of risks. My oncologist has to weigh those risks all the time with me, in dealing with so much cancer related pain. The fentanyl patches I am on, are 100 times stronger per dose than morphine, and they have around 1,000 deaths per year even from legitimate use. This doesn't count those that take legal pain killers for recreational use (pure suicide in my opinion). But my pain is so constant and so severe, both my doctor and I feel the risks are worth it, so that I can have some semblance of quality of life.

I am not for any recreational use of illegal drugs myself, but I don't feel there's any need to hammer that point over and over here at HW, because that is not the purpose of now including the subject of MM at HW.

Talk to those family members where they have seen their loved ones suffering and/or wasting away, and they are willing to do whatever it takes legally to ease their suffering and pain. I can speak from over 3 years of experience, there is no way to totally understand the life of a chronic pain sufferer unless you are one yourself. Even if you are a caretaker, still not the same, as living in a body of steady severe pain every moment your eyes are open.

If they ever made MM legal in this state, don't know if I would or wouldn't try it. My gut feeling says no, but again, as the pain in my body continues to migrate further and further through my body, and it's becoming harder and harder to control the pain with standard opiate based pain killers, I won't say I would never try it. If one has enough pain for long enough, it's amazing what you will consider to ease the pain.

Only suggesting you lighten up a bit, we get it, you are totally against the subject. So no need to keep pounding the same point, you aren't going to convert anyone to your line of thinking that doesn't already agree with you.

David in SC

Buddy:

>>>>>>>>>>>

 I find it odd that on a cancer forum some seem to be defending/promoting a known carcinogen.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I thought we might actually have a partial meeting of the minds until I read the last sentence.

Well, I guess we better not promote salvage radiation (or any radiation). It's a known carcinogen, to be sure.

Are you even reading the responses? They are promoting the use of MM for extreme pain/nausea relief.

Mel 

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Post Edited (Buddy Blank) : 10/11/2013 9:18:28 PM (GMT-6)

Mel saving a life with radiation is a different kettle of fish than smoking weed for nausea. I am surprised you'd equate the two.

On August 14, 1970, the Assistant Secretary of Health, Dr. Roger O. Egeberg wrote a letter recommending the plant, marijuana, be classified as a schedule 1 substance, and it has remained that way for nearly 45 years.  Egeberg had carefully chosen his words:

"Since there is still a considerable void in our knowledge of the plant and effects of the active drug contained in it, our recommendation is that marijuana be retained within schedule 1 at least until the completion of certain studies now underway to resolve the issue."

Not because of sound science, but because of its absence, marijuana was classified as a schedule 1 substance.  Thus began President Nixon's War on Drugs, and specifically M.  Egeberg mentions studies that are underway, but many were never completed.

Someone dies in the United States every 19 minutes from a prescription drug overdose, mostly accidental. Every 19 minutes.  There has not been one documented case of someone dying from a marijuana overdose.  Not one.  Ever.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is an Indian American neurosurgeon and an assistant professor of neurosurgery at Emory University School of Medicine and associate chief of the neurosurgery service at Grady Memorial Hospital in Atlanta, Georgia.   A media personality on health-related issues, he is best known as CNN's multiple Emmy award winning chief medical correspondent, hosting the network's weekend health program.   From 1997 to 1998, he served as one of fifteen White House Fellows, primarily as an advisor to Hillary Clinton.  In January 2009, it was reported that Gupta was offered the position of Surgeon General of the United States in the Obama administration, but he withdrew his name from consideration.

In a 2013 editorial, Gupta announced that in the process of working on a documentary about marijuana he had changed his mind about the drug's risks and benefits. Gupta had previously criticized laws that allowed patient access to medical marijuana, but he reversed his stance, saying, "I am here to apologize," and, "We have been terribly and systematically misled for nearly 70 years in the United States, and I apologize for my own role in that."

Read the CNN article here:  http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/08/health/gupta-changed-mind-marijuana/index.html

Here is a link to the CNN documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tShnVEmdS2o

I challenge anybody here to watch that video and then tell me that MM has no medical benefit whatsoever.

Buddy:

You said:

>>>>>>>>>

Mel are there any specific studies using marijuana for PCa for pain relief? I could not find one.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Actually, I don't know. Others have posted some links.

Let's say there aren't any.

Nevertheless, it is clear from the responses here (and on the CP Forum) that people in the setting of major pain/nausea are helped with MM, often when they are not helped by prescription painkillers, and with fewer SE.

While I am not in that situation, one of my best friends is. He has PC and a host of other ailments. He has had one hip and two knee replacements. He suffers a great deal of pain. He does use MM and it helps him GREATLY with the pain.

Question for you : would you tell this person to wait for studies??

A second question for you: even if a study came out, would you change your mind (it appears to be quite rigid, but maybe not).

Mel

compiler said... Question for you : would you tell this person to wait for studies?? Interesting parallelism... There have been multiple Level-II studies verifying that over-the-counter pomegranate juice (or tabs) slows down progressing prostate cancer (measured by advancing PSA) following primary treatment...yet we have some guys here who are in exactly that very predicament (progressing PC following treatment) who steadfastly refuse to believe it is worth the couple pennys per day it costs until there is a Level-III study completed...and are willing, apparently, to wait.  [For reasons I've previously posted HERE , there will probably never a costly Level-III study of pomegranate juice...basically, it's a low-margin food, not a drug.] Add to this the fact that the leading PC oncologists treating advanced PC are all recommending pomegranate to their patients in these cases. Some thoughts seem beyond reason... It’s baffling to think about what people will subject themselves to (surgery, radiation, chemical/hormone treatment) to stop or slow their cancer growth while not undertaking the far less radical steps that are within their direct control to slow their cancer growth and prolong life…like diet, nutrition, exercise, etc...even when they are equiped with the knowledge.     Most men cannot make the cancer disappear with a change in lifestyle, but the results of lifestyle changes can be, indeed, "dramatic" in the direct words of several of the leading PC docs.

Buddy:

You've sidestepped my questions:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question for you : would you tell this person to wait for studies??

A second question for you: even if a study came out, would you change your mind (it appears to be quite rigid, but maybe not).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Regarding your post, I am not advocating breaking laws, but many States have legalized MM. I do advocate ALL States legalizing MM. Does anyone know this: can the Feds trump the State laws and make arrests? I am pretty sure they haven't yet.

Mel

Buddy, then you should understand even more why MM could be a life saver to someone dealing with severe chronic pain, and again, I am only talking about it if it is legal. Not trying to justify illegal use of any drug, helpful or not.

David

compiler said...
Buddy:

You've sidestepped my questions:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question for you : would you tell this person to wait for studies??

A second question for you: even if a study came out, would you change your mind (it appears to be quite rigid, but maybe not).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Regarding your post, I am not advocating breaking laws, but many States have legalized MM. I do advocate ALL States legalizing MM. Does anyone know this: can the Feds trump the State laws and make arrests? I am pretty sure they haven't yet.

Mel

Federal law can trump any state law. The DEA did come to Colorado a few years ago and ordered all dispensaries within a thousand feet of a school shutdown. Even when the school was the University of Colorado Boulder. When Colorado and Washington passed legalization initiatives last election the federal response was requested by both governors while legalization by state  law, taxation, etc was worked out. Finally the Attorney General's office issued their statement linked below.

http://libertycrier.com/eric-holder-says-doj-will-let-washington-colorado-marijuana-laws-go-effect/

Why are you 100% negative on this subject, Buddy. I respect your right to your own opinions, and not saying anyone is all right or all wrong, but why so dogmatic on this? Did you have some bad M experiences in your youth or something?

Again, I am not wanting to be on MM even if it were legal here, but the meds I am on, are far more dangerous than anything that could come out of using MM, but its a risk I am willing to take, since the alternative is far, far worse.

People that smoke pot don't automatically move on to harder drugs like heroin. Any more than someone drinking wine doesn't end up drinking moonshine by the gallon. There will always be people that will abuse whatever they are using, legal or otherwise. Some of your views are clearly throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just wondering why you have such an axe to grind on this subject.

In my area deep down in the south, meth is the most dangerous drug and drug related activity as far as the cops are concerned. Those users are some dangerous animals for sure, and much of what they do to get their drugs are connected to stealing and violent crimes. You don't usually get that out of people smoking pot by itself.

I don't see how you could possibly make that conclusion about the CNN piece, Dr. Gupta is a first class doctor with a great reputation

David

[quote=Buddy]Mel I don't advocate breaking US narcotics laws based on anecdotes told on the Internet.

You know, I have a good friend with Parkinson's Disease that finds great relief from rigidity and pain while trying to get to sleep by using a bit of edible MM each evening. More effective, less expensive and less side effects (liver function, drug interactions) than the pharmaceuticals prescribed. Obviously, he still needs the dopamine related drugs. His Doctor is all for it.

In my moral/ethical universe, it would be NOT GOOD to deny him his MM, the legality of it be darned. MM is, and has been for some time, legal here in Colorado. If it wasn't, I'd help him find another source because it would be the GOOD thing to do (at least in my world).

[quote=Mel]Does anyone know this: can the Feds trump the State laws and make arrests? I am pretty sure they haven't yet.

Theoretically yes. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't busted any individual MM users here in Colorado. Now, in Colorado, it is legal under State law to purchase, possess and grow a limited amount of marijuana for any personal, use recreational or otherwise. No one can sell it for recreational use until 1/14.

Buddy,

As an aside: Long ago and far away, I served in a Field Artillery Unit. If the US Army had vigorously enforced its rules against cannabis use, the Battalion (and probably the Division) would have ceased to exists. I'm not sure what world some of you have lived in.........