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I've pretty much had it with dad's attitude and I don't know what to do!

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Posted 6/25/2018 8:45 PM (GMT -5)
As some of you know, I have been here a lot discussing my dad's PCa as it progresses. I am rooting for him and trying to be positive and help him. His PSA is rising rapidly and now they told him they need to change his chemo medications. I am trying to encourage my dad to eat healthier, get out of bed, etc. Well I saw my dad today and noticed he smelled like cigarettes. So I've learned my dad never has quit smoking all along and that is why he goes to town, so he can hide on us when he smokes. He lied and lied, saying he hadn't been smoking but his fingers were brown. He could not have been standing by anyone who was smoking. He finally told me he had a cigarette over by Walgreens a couple days ago. I feel like I am banging my head on the wall and torturing myself when my dad does not put in the effort to stop smoking. I asked my mom and she said she didn't know he'd been smoking but if he is, you can't stop him. She said it's his life and he knows she the doctor said it's bad for his PCa and that it can raise his PSA. His PSA doubling time is about 2 and a half months if that tells you anything. I feel like I don't want to be around him because it hurts to be lied to and it hurts to know what he is doing to himself when he doesn't have to be that way. But I don't want to abandon him or take the "it's your life" attitude because I care too much to do something like that. My dad is not only hurting himself, he's hurting those around him. I don't think he understands that. When his parents died, he didn't flinch that much. I've been more upset in this whole PCa journey than he ever has been. including both his parents' deaths combined. I guess I'm just disappointed. Sorry about the negative post. I just had to vent.

Dad Dx 2011, age 63, PSA 16, Gleason 7 intermediate risk
Radiation PSA<1
Clear 2 years, relapse
2013 started HT (Casodex, Telstar)
2013 scans clear
HT 2-3 years
2016 PSA>1,3,5
Started Zytiga/Prednisone, worked 6-8 months
PSA>5, stopped Zytiga
Start Estramustine, PSA>9
1/18 Bone scans clear
2018 Restart Casodex
2018 Add Adovart
3/18 PSA 21
4/18 PSA 32
4/18 stop Casodex, add Etoposide
6/18 stop Estramustine and Etoposide
6/18 new chemo ordered, waiting for payment assistance
Posted 6/25/2018 9:01 PM (GMT -5)
Lisa I feel for you. Tabaco is terribly addictive and it is clear he hasn’t kicked the habit. I would rather he tell you to your face he is going to smoke rather than lying to you. but often that is a guy thing. I don’t think anyone is going to make drastic life style changes after 65 years and I doubt that by then they would make much difference in terms of -longevity.

You love him more than life itself, that is clear and wonderful. Just love him. Get all you can of him. Keep him happy and loved. Enjoy your time on earth with him and understand you will see him long term. Encourage him to improve but please don’t drive a wedge between you two that takes a smile off anyone’s face. Life is precious and we should get all we can out of it. He could not have a better daughter and you need to be in his arms so he knows that.

Bless you

Jack
Posted 6/25/2018 10:04 PM (GMT -5)
Lisa, Jack has given you very wise advice. Don’t waste the .time you have with him. As a former smoker who quit 30 years ago after many many tries, I can tell you it is very hard and most of all, you have to really want to stop, otherwise nothing will work. I’m sure your dad is a smart enough man to know it’s bad for him. You don’t know what’s in his mind. He may be thinking, how much time do I have left, this cancer will get me before cigarettes do. I’m not saying that’s the case, just that might be what he is thinking.

The lying is another story. I don’t blame you for being upset. But try to forgive, it will be better for both of you. Perhaps talk to him about how much the fact that he isn’t open with you is troubling you.

He’s dealing with a lot, as you are. You might both be best served if you told him exactly how you feel and why you feel that way, and then let it go.
Posted 6/26/2018 3:17 AM (GMT -5)
There’s a member of my family on a transplant list. Cirrhosis from drinking. Another whose older than I who smokes and doesn’t tell anyone. I believe it will kill him. (Could be wrong) No man on my dads side has lived past 64 in 3 generations. (He’s the first...turned 65 today...moms side no different). I don’t blame either one of these people for not bringing it up with me. They know my feelings...(which is the very reason they don’t talk to me about it). I don’t blame em. Knowing my feelings...why would they?

Brother has stolen so much through the years...it was painful. “How could he do this to me?” “How could he do this to the family?” I still love him. I can’t help it. We don’t choose our blood.

Your dad loves you too.

Post Edited (island time) : 6/26/2018 3:09:43 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/26/2018 5:04 AM (GMT -5)
Lisa there's an old saying that says the ones you love are the ones that hurt you, Your a parent how many times over the years have you wondered why the kids do things that hurt you in a small way and has your kids get older you will see this more. I am very sure that your father feels guilty about smoking that's why he is trying to hide it and I'm saying that from experience, but at this time he's finding some comfort in smoking as people do with comfort food when they are down in the dumps. As Prato says don't worry about the smoking at this stage it isn't gonna make any difference love him for what he is your not gonna change him. Yes you feel bad that he has lied to you but he still loved you when you lied to him and you love your kids when they lie to you. What your feeling is very normal you want to do whatever you can to keep him around for a long time cause you love him. Just and idea? your trying to get him out of bed and do something maybe if it's possible take a walk with him outside and let him smoke while your walking you get to spend time with him and he gets to smoke it could be a stress relief for both of you? Hang in there girl and keep venting with us.

Larry
Posted 6/26/2018 8:49 AM (GMT -5)
Lisa, I understand your frustration. My dad had lung cancer and never quit smoking. Half of his left lung was removed, he endured chemo and radiation (particularly nasty), and yet he simply couldn't leave the cigarettes alone. He would also hide. When he passed, his new truck smelled of cigarette smoke and there were little bags of butts under the seat. Nicotine addiction is particularly hard to overcome. I think my dad hid his smoking because he was embarrassed that, after all he had been through, after all his family had been through with him, he simply could not stop. My only advise is to love him anyway, as I know you do. It's really hard to watch someone you love do self-destructive things, but unfortunately, your mom is right. He's a grown man and there's no stopping them.

Donna.
Posted 6/26/2018 9:13 AM (GMT -5)
As someone in the late stages of PCa there are times I live life as the message I give my family sometimes is come closer-get away from me. So please forgive those of us who are living with PCa and taking so many medications it can alter our thought process. I am now on Xtandi and Lupron and just had ration to the mets on my spine and have pain on a regular basis. When I say my prayers I ask forgiveness for any hurt that I have caused others, and I give thanks for my family. My guess is that your Father does the same.

Michael
Posted 6/26/2018 9:52 AM (GMT -5)
You've gotten wonderful advice. Smoking is such a powerful addiction. Let it be. Love -- real love - should be unconditional. Instead of making him feel so lousy for his addiction, it is time to accept him with all his warts, especially now. Do it. Let it go.

Mel
Posted 6/26/2018 9:53 AM (GMT -5)
Hi Lisa,
My wife went through something similar. Her brother, a lifelong alchoholic received a liver transplant in December 2013 and within one year began drinking again. He kept it a secret for a long time but eventually everyone found out. My wife was so angered by his decision to start drinking again that she refused to talk to him anymore. In December 2015 he flew across the country to visit us. We met him at the hotel and he literally begged us to stay with him overnight. Because of work committments, feelings, and other reasons, we did not stay. At 4:55 A.M. the following morning we received a phone call from the police department informing us that he had passed away that night. My wife cannot forgive herself for what happened and her reaction to his return to drinking. It haunts her everyday.

My point is that if you continue to harbor ill feelings, you may lose an opportunity to continue to foster your relationship with your dad and if and when he passes, it is time that you will never be able to get back. I hope our experience helps you how to respond to your dads lifestyle decision. Best wishes.
Posted 6/26/2018 10:05 AM (GMT -5)
You sound like a wonderful, loving daughter but understandably a frustrated one. I'm so sorry you're going through this wrenching experience. Everyone here has given you good advice. As they have said, accept your dad where he his right now (though I think it would be okay to ask him not to smoke around you because the smoke bothers you). Show him your love and support by offering companionship, conversation, and whatever shared experiences you can--watching a movie or listening to music or audio books together or sharing bowls of his favorite ice cream. When you do simple things together, you're both less likely to be thinking about his smoking. You can't change his behavior but you can shift your response to it. Onward, Daughter!
Posted 6/26/2018 10:42 AM (GMT -5)
Lisa –

It's probably much too late in the day to consider this, and perhaps such measures as I am about to discuss have already been tried with your dad, but would any of the smoking alternatives that are out there possibly be of any help him at this point?

I mean the things like nicotine patches, nicotine gum, and even what they call e-cigarettes, or "vaping," as it's called.

At least they would be things that can actually be done, or tried, and they would be more than just doing more talking to him, which he is probably mentally shutting out now anyway.

Of course he would have to be willing to try them. Or perhaps he has already refused them.

But if these haven't been considered yet, they may be worth at least a try with him.
Posted 6/26/2018 10:55 AM (GMT -5)
My Dad ignored diabetes and other health conditions and eventually had a stroke. While he was in the hospital recovering, I was complaining to his brother-in-law (my uncle) about how Dad refused to do the things he needed to do to keep his blood sugar under control, keep his blood pressure under control, and so forth.

My favorite uncle stopped me in my tracks when he looked me right in the eye and said, "Don't you dare judge or lecture this man until you've walked one step in his shoes." I learned a lot that day and became a whole lot less judgmental of other people. We simply cannot impose our will on our loved ones, no matter how much we might want to. Love them and try to understand their failings while they're still with you.
Have you ever listened carefully to Mike and the Mechanics wonderful song, "in the Living Years"? A lot of wisdom there.
Posted 6/26/2018 11:08 AM (GMT -5)
You may not see it, but it sounds like you're in a control struggle. It's very common, and often invisible to those embroiled in it.

Cancer is scary for many reasons, but a big one is that it is out of our control. We humans always want to be in control, cancer supremely frustrates that desire. He's not in control of it, the doctors aren't, and you aren't. But maybe smoking you can try to control. Thus the battle is on, the game is afoot.

I may be off base, but this is what I'm hearing. A loving daughter wants her father to live as long as possible. He has cancer that is not curable, that is not in control by any means available anymore. The daughter thinks smoking will shorten the time that is left, so wants him to stop it (control). He likes smoking, and can't or doesn't want to stop (control). So he does it anyway (control), and hides the activity (control), because he doesn't want open conflict.

Sadly, at this point people may retreat to what they can control, which may be attention. So, "If that stubborn jerk won't quit (control), then I'll just leave him to his addiction (control). I'm out!".

Though smoking may be "bad for him", how bad is it really? What's the judgement call on that? No doctor could possibly give a clear answer to that anyway. If they do they're faking it. There is no clear answer. In this acute situation, what direct link is there between smoking and the progression of late stage prostate cancer?

Could you have an open and loving conversation about it with him? Could you find it within your self to yield control, to give him permission to do it in a place ok to both of you? Could you simply sit on the porch and talk with him outside while he enjoys a cigarette?

Life is so precious, time is so short, love is so rare, maybe filling the time you have together with joy, laughter, and warm memories would be better than a cold and unwinnable control game.

I feel for you. It's a difficult situation for all. I hope you both find peace in this tough time.
Posted 6/26/2018 11:54 AM (GMT -5)
From clocknut's post: Mike and the Mechanics, "In the Living Years."

Yes, a great song:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hZx19wtRIQ
Posted 6/26/2018 11:58 AM (GMT -5)
My mom, who passed 29 years ago, could never give up smoking (and hid it from us, but we knew it) despite having serious health issues from smoking the last five years of her life.

Wishing you peace as you come to accept that which you cannot change.
Posted 6/26/2018 12:00 PM (GMT -5)
If I could get away way with it I would write a real negative vent about Lisa right about now...she might even learn something so I will suffice with this..this is more about Lisa than about her father...period...no worries...I'll take the hit...the rest can continue "support" for her...hopefully it may distract her enough to where her dad can have a smoke...maybe even a midnite toke in peace. post script member the old war movies...where the dying GI would ask his buddy for that drag from his smoke...member...reminds me of Mother Theresa...being there...just being there...with the dying...here heart dying with them...just because...just fricken because...


Clocknut… In the LIving Years...a masterpiece of taughts….that and Jerry Rafferty's Baker Street...mirror my life
Posted 6/26/2018 3:13 PM (GMT -5)
I understand how you feel too. When I was younger, my mother had COPD. She told me she had quit smoking and then smoked on the sly even while on oxygen. At her funeral, a friend told me the story of her buying cigarettes and spotting her doctor across the store. She was more concerned about my finding out than her doctor! She was smoking up until the week she died. I was very very mad at the time, now that I'm older, and my husband has stage IV cancer, I regret my condescending attitude. I was young and full of it; I wish I had been more understanding.

But that is what life is all about - learning that which we don't know.

Go easy on him. Love him no matter what his decisions are. Once you've told him your opinion on his smoking, drop it. He heard you. He might listen to you, He might not. But in the end, it's his decision. Smoking helps with stress, it's not healthy, neither is drinking or eating or many other vices, but and like someone else mentioned, he can't control cancer so he needs something else that he can.

Who knows, if everyone lets it slide he might stop on his own. And if he does stop, don't make a big deal. Just tell him that you love him and that you're proud of him.

Sending positive thoughts and prayers your way.

Debby
Posted 6/26/2018 4:41 PM (GMT -5)
My dear Lisa...we all love you...our responses...yes...even...mine testify to that...I know...you know that...life is hard...its " designed that way "...the process of dying is hard for all involved...also by " design "...I wish I could do a spockian mind meld for the whole world...now there's an ego...I can not and no one can...it would not be right if one could...one must...using all that is in them..."good"and "bad" to unify and follow what is inside them...and let love/life do the rest... when some one who loves me tells me "It is finished " I tend to believe them ...that tendency has made all...I say again...all the difference..."... ' Be still and know ' with respect for this season/trial...logo....ps I hope this post at least answers the question asked in the last part of the title of your thread...
Your title was the proverbial scream in the vacuum of time and space...and it has been heard...thus filled...rest there...rest...
Posted 6/26/2018 6:42 PM (GMT -5)
The most difficult accomplishment I've ever had in my life was to quit smoking cold turkey when I was in my 20s. As I'm in the winter of my life I'm not too bothered about an extra glass or two of wine every day and eating onion rings and fried chicken. I'm enjoying life. Love your dad.
Posted 6/26/2018 8:33 PM (GMT -5)

John_TX said...
The most difficult accomplishment I've ever had in my life was to quit smoking cold turkey when I was in my 20s.

I can say the same thing but in my 30’s. Cold turkey from 3 packs a day. I was sick to my stomach when my son age 19 at the time, was found to be smoking. But no matter what I said or did, he only stopped when he himself was ready. Thank Goodness, it was in his mid 20’s (smarter than his Dad, always was always will be.)


John_TX said...
As I'm in the winter of my life I'm not too bothered about an extra glass or two of wine every day and eating onion rings and fried chicken. I'm enjoying life.

This is priceless. In a good way

Post Edited (Pratoman) : 6/26/2018 7:36:48 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/27/2018 8:30 AM (GMT -5)
Lisa,

There is some really important insight in these posts.

I'll add that I don't believe your father "lied" to you, in the truest sense. He likely feels he is protecting you by NOT telling you things he knows you don't want to hear that really won't make a difference as he sees them. And I can tell you from my experience that whether I smoked a cigar or not falls into the most remote things I'm worried about today. Going for that cigar gets me out of the house, and off for a walk and visit with my friends, including the ones who take me to chemo.

If you pick your objectives, you can focus on the little things that you can control (as already discussed), and leave those uncontrollable things that hurt you, but don't seem to hurt him, in a trash bag on the side of the road. He might decide to make things better for himself if it is his un-pressured decision.
Posted 6/27/2018 10:50 AM (GMT -5)
Lisa, while I understand your concerns, I will share my experience dealing with someone that was dx'd with terminal lung cancer. My mother was dx'd in the spring of 1997. She lived out of state & I brought her to my house for treatment & care. Bringing her here assured me she would get the best medical care possible. She was 72 years old.

We sat there & listened to the oncologist say she had 12 months to live. She was offered chemo & radiation for treatment. She chose radiation because she wanted no part of chemo. She saw several friends go through chemo & they were very sick. This was her decision to make not mine. I made it very clear I would back her up on any path she chose to take.

She was a smoker all of her life. When we got into the car the first thing she said was; you are going to think I am crazy, I want a cigarette. I told her, no, I don't think you are crazy, you have done this all of your life & at this point, will it really matter one way or the other? I told her to hang on, that we would be home soon. She was on the back porch in no time having her cigarette & iced tea. Sitting there having her smoke helped calm her nerves, she always had a smoke when she was upset. She had always told me, it helps calm me down. Was I happy she was lighting up on the back porch, of course not. But, it was her decision not mine. I never said a word about her continuing to smoke.

Her dr told us, it is easier for people to kick a cocaine habit than it is to stop smoking, especially people that have smoked a long time.

I made the choice when we were told 12 months to live, I would spend whatever time we had with her enjoying her to the max. Whatever she wanted to do, we did it. It was all about keeping her as calm & stress free as possible but having as good quality of life at the same time.

My mother lived 11 months. I am so glad for those 11 months too. I got to know my mother on a completely different level. I often think about our time together & when I do, I smile & sometimes even laugh remembering some of the good times. This is what I am left with & I treasure it.

So, perhaps you may want to rethink your situation a little. Don't let yourself be one of those that say's well I wish now I hadn't said this or that to my dad. We may not agree with the decisions people make. I often thought, you know, if I were to put myself in my mother's shoes, who knows I may have wanted that cigarette too. It was not going to change her situation at all, just like chemo & radiation were not going to change things.
Posted 6/27/2018 2:22 PM (GMT -5)
Oh Lisa... I feel for you. I really do. I understand that you must be hurt after finding out he’s lied about it, but as someone has already mentioned ... I would say he’s just protecting you as he knows it will upset you.

I’m a smoker and I know how hard it is to give up. I would imagine that your father is pretty stressed out with the way things are at the moment and... yes.. probably feels like a cigarette. I know I’m smoking a lot more at the moment, I also know it’s the worst possible thing to turn to as it doesn’t ease the stress whatsoever! But... I crave that cigarette.

I have mixed feelings on this one, I would hate for my Dad to smoke but at the same time, if it brought him some sense of satisfaction I’d just have to accept it.... but I’m at a different stage from you in all of this. The best advice I can give is to try your best not to get in to arguments about it... it won’t change his desire to smoke, just try and enjoy your time with him.

I’m afraid I haven’t been much help there have I.... just try and stay calm. Hopefully he will cut down/ stop the smoking but it is very hard so keep that in mind.

Xxx
Posted 6/29/2018 1:40 AM (GMT -5)
that's a powerful rant. i'm a long term recovering addict and I get your frustration but he's probably "lying" to you so you will get off his back. cigarettes were harder for me to kick than heroin. I quit cigarettes cold turkey after I was clean a year and I experienced an obsession worse than when I quit drugs. good thing I had the recovery fire in my belly or I wouldn't have made it.

anyhow I know you love him and want to help. he's probably not going to quit smoking and cigarettes probably aren't going to kill him and even if they do that's his choice. so really the only thing you can change is your expectations. good luck to you and him!

ed
Posted 6/29/2018 8:26 AM (GMT -5)
It took me a full year to completely rid myself of the urge to smoke which took complete dedication to the cause. I promised my wife I would quit and I had a powerful reason to stay the course.
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