Tim G said...
I think that the Ornish diet, while difficult, should be doable. Once you're on it awhile, with support from the Ornish organization, it will become easier because it is a habit. There are a lot of things we think we can't do, but have made no serious effort. I hope you will give us regular updates about how it's going.

Tim, that's my hope. My track record with these things isn't very good, but I plan to go into it with a positive attitude, and hopefully it will work out.

As far as updates, yup, I will update.

@Roll.....
Thanks. I don't know if my Dr will give me a scrip for another CAC. I did have one last August though, score was 1998. Yes, pretty ugly. So I have an idea of what it is now, ballpark. I will be getting an updated a1c though as a baseline, as well as hs-CRP (which was .73 as of a month ago, unbelievably) as Ornish requires it.

Also, on my own, I plan to do testing of Body Fat % and VO2 Max, at Dexcom, I am curious to see if the program improves my Body fat:lean muscle ratio, and my exercise capacity.

Ken, that sounds great. Well done getting over the first hurdle. Now the key is getting the diet to a long term life method. To me, the weight loss and BP reduction would be expected. Surprising that your arthritis is greatly improved so soon. What do you guess was causing the inflammation that you have eliminated?

JNF said...
Ken, that sounds great. Well done getting over the first hurdle. Now the key is getting the diet to a long term life method. To me, the weight loss and BP reduction would be expected. Surprising that your arthritis is greatly improved so soon. What do you guess was causing the inflammation that you have eliminated?

Jack, the diet is designed to be not only anti atherogenic but also anti inflammatory. And actually it's been shown that low level chronic inflammation is a driver of heart disease. So I think the diet has a lot to do with the knee being (not perfect but) 90% better.

My plan is to , and I think I have mentioned this before, stick to it , with a few modifications. Maybe fish once a week, maybe a steak once every 2-3 months, but an 8 ounce filet rather than a 24 ounce ribeye LOL. Just so I can enjoy a treat once in a while, make dining out a little easier. The rest of the time I plan to stick to what I am doing. If I can do that, it will still be huge improvement over the stupid way I have been eating, and will be a huge improvement in my LONG TERM health.

I know if I try to remain perfect, it won't be sustainable for me for very long, I know myself. But the great thing is this program is helping me create new habits.

Ken, my doc told me we basically get one shot at the coronary calcium scan if it is abnormal. Your doc might be different. He said that an actual significant physical reduction of the calcium/plaque just doesn’t happen for most people. And if it does, it is a long period to see results. I have seen studies that show people reducing their LDL down in the 20-30 range for several years that show some reduction and I remember in one of Ornish first books he made the claim, but I don’t remember what studies he used to make the claim.

My score was 125. Over 100 is elevated for my age, so I have a moderately elevated risk. My cardiologist explained, that the goal now is to keep it from getting worse and to hold the plaque/calcium in place. Thus he put me on a statin. That was two years ago and my LDL has been under 40 since then. At a recent visit I asked him about another scan and he said it wasn’t worth the effort and would not expect to see significant improvement. He explained that if my first scan was under 100, then he might repeat a scan in 3-5 years to see if it had increased. But he explained that once you have a scan that shows elevated risk further scans aren’t warranted.

Pratoman said...
Thought I would offer an update.....

Thanks for the update. It sounds like this is going to work for you. As I wrote in an earlier post, it’s not a diet as much as a lifestyle change and if one looks at it as an adventure and not about giving things up it can help with the transition. NPR had a story this week about the value of getting out of a rut and how that can bring joy into our lives. ([url] https://www.npr.org/2024/06/26/g-s1-4136/stuck-in-a-rut-how-to-appreciate-your-life-again-according-to-science{/url]). Changing the way (what, when, how) we eat can certainly fall into the “rut.” I have friends who eat the same things on the same days of the week. While there might be comfort in this, as well as reducing the decision-making about what to have, to me, it would bore me to death but I’m the type of person who is always looking for new experiences.

Regarding the query about the cost of programs like this, keep in mind that one can buy the Ornish books, used, for a few bucks but there is value to attending classes just like in learning anything else. I have done sort of OK teaching myself the guitar but once I found a really good teacher (online) who understand how to design a a series of lessons and provides the coaching, my learning accelerated.

JNF said...
Ken, another question I had regards cost. I know the program isn’t cheap and if you don’t mind the question, is any of the cost eligible for reimbursement through your insurance coverage?

Don't mind at all Jack. The stated billing amount is $11,000. However, Medicare, and a few private insurance companies, not sure which ones, cover the entire cost IF you have had an event, like heart attack, or stunted blockages within the 12 month period preceding the date that you start.

When Ornish told me this, I contacted Medicare directly, and they confirmed that I would be covered in full, based on my history (stent in August 2023) and that Ornish Lifestyle Medicine is a fully participating Medicare provider so there would be no balance billing.

I actually had this conversation with a live agent on the chat feature of the Medicare website. I asked very pointed questions so there would be no gray area, and I printed and saved the transcript of the full conversation, just in case.

I would imagine that if one was not on Medicare, or even was, but did not qualify for reimbursement and was paying out of pocket, there would be some sort of discounted direct pay rate. Just an assumption on my part.

I haven't updated since the end of June., so here's an update for anyone who is interested....

The structured program ended on July 31st, so just under a month ago. I am still about 95% compliant on the diet, I do add olive oil, only Extra Virgin, as thats the least processed OO, and it has healthy polyphenols, which other olive oils have less oof (or none, not sure).
I have slacked just a bit on exercise, but I still exercise most days, same on meditation, I do meditate and it still is helpful, but not an hour a day. I intend to get back to both regular exercise and one hour per day meditation soon, I just have time constraints, as I sold my NY home , am in the process of cleaning out 44 years of junk and at the same time, looking for a new place in NY, an apartment in an active community with amenities. anyway, I digress....

Total Cholesterol - 86
LDL - 31
HDL - 33 I'm told the fact that this is low, takes on less importance with LDL as low as mine (above)
Triglycerides 181- it had dropped from 217 before the Ornish program, to 126 in week 8 of the program, now its back to 181, I have not changed diet, I believe its the fact that I stopped exercising , for two weeks prior to the blood draw, as I was traveling (bad excuse),
hs-CRP - .53 - incredibly good

So at this point, I am 95% compliant with diet , remaining 100% vegan, and 75-80% compliant on exercise and meditation which I need to and plan to reset. As far as support, after the program ended, the Ornish organization offered us (our group of 10) to remain in touch via zoom once a week, with a goal of providing each other support. 9 of us, including me, have taken advantage of this, I find it moderately helpful, not sure if I will continue indefinitely.

I still plan eventually to go off vegan, and go on a modified (stricter, maybe a few days a week) mediterranean diet, eating fish maybe 2 x a week, maybe poultry 1 x a week. But as long as I am not feeling greatly deprived, I will stick to vegan.

Bottom line, numbers improved, feel much better physically, improved mindset, and this was probably one of the best things I have ever done for myself (second only to learning how to play guitar when I retired LOL)

Oh, I was on 9 meds when this journey began. I am now on 4. (2 meds dropped for reasons unrelated to the program) , I an still on one BP med, although a reduced dose, I am hoping to eventually get off it altogether, that will take more intense exercise , and maybe lose a few more pounds. I have lost 26 pounds, I'd like to lose another 5.

Thats about it for now.

Ken, congratulations on achieving those results and your stick-to-it-tive-ness is amazing. Glad it worked out for you.

Jim

Congrats of the project and thanks for the update.

I just finished a project to run all the streets in my city, which took my 19 months and 1,057 miles. I did 194 runs and blogged each one with description of what I saw and photos. That certainly kept me going on the exercise and now my goal, although smaller, is to drop some pounds, maybe 10-15, and work on core. To that end I hit the gym 2-3 times per week and do the weight machines, floor exercises, and then do 500 yards in the pool. I'm still running 3 times per week for a total of 21 miles. I'm also doing a hike about 5 days/week with the dog on the nearby trail, 2-3 miles each time.

Here's a link to that running blog.

https://myrunbillingsproject.blogspot.com

BTW, when I finished my art degree 2 years ago I started that running project and with that done I'm back to the guitar, something I'm played since high school, not very well, but now's the time to get serious.

Any time we can reduce our dependency on drugs of any sorts is very positive so the program you are on seems to be working. Hopefully over time you can continue to incorporate at least some of the positive outcomes that you are experiencing. I guess as we all know, the hardest part of any program that positively affects our physical being whether it’s loosing weight, quitting smoking etc. is trying to make it a life long change.
Too many of us go back to our old bad habits.
Good luck in keeping an ongoing faith with at least some of the things you have learned from this program.
Sent from Twin Lakes, Colorado where my wife and I are on a 3 week journey to hike as many 14rs as we can. ( 5 in 7 days so far)
Dave

Hi Ken/Prato, my next door neighbors went fully vegan and quickly lost a lot of weight and dropped total cholesterol like 40 points. I don't think they were as strict as the Ornish diet. I do remember a small study where it also appeared to reverse tumor growth in a man with prostate cancer, in addition to it's claimed benefits for our hearts. I have never had the nerve to even try it- yet. Even though I love a good garden salad, they do not sound at all good without some good thousand Island, ranch or olive oil/vinegar dressings. IOW, oil, pretty much verbotten on Ornish, right? I can't imagine, but wish I could!

I have had to make my own dietary interventions recently, because, just as I was worried about, my ADT drugs have helped me along towards diabetes(T2D) . Just as stated in their list of known side effects: loss of muscle mass(check), increased fat mass(double check), increase triglycerides(yep) and increased blood sugar( double check). Also a few other negatives all of which probably worsen all cause mortality.

Now, don't get me wrong, my diet was not good to start with, I was not doing what had worked for me in the past, which was pretty much opposite of Ornish. But, my diet did not really change. What did change once the meds were added was the steady increase in weight, fat, belly size, triglycerides and definitely blood sugar. Until I realized a few months ago that I was officially type 2 diabetes.

Which is the last thing in the world a stage 4 prostate cancer patient needs, or really anybody. High blood sugar combined with high blood insulin leads to or worsens just about every disease known to man. So finally, I jumped on it with both feet with what I know works for me: low carb. Meat often with a salad and dressing, but sometimes verging on carnivore. Getting into ketosis. With occasional fasts throw in, which are so much easier for me once I am in ketosis(less hunger). Except for 2 meals recently with slight rule breaks, I have not had real bread, potatoes, corn etc, and the BIG one: desserts, for about 2 1/2 months.

I guess all of this does little to overcome the drug induced inability to add muscle, or give me the energy to do so. But, my blood sugars are MUCH improved and solidly under of the diabetic range, AND my fasting insulin falls only in the middle of the so called "normal range"( I bet a dollar it was MUCH higher 2 1/2 months ago.) My A1c is barely prediabetic. ...........My gut has shrunk a LOT. I have lost over 25 lbs, and my blood pressure was 108/68. Though I miss my high carb foods, but not as much as I did, and I am never actually hungry. I feel like I would "starve" on Ornish.

I feel like my main concern, the T2D, is now under control and improving daily, and I have not yet had any meds for it. Yes, if I had not improved rapidly, I would have got a doc to prescribe meds for me, but so far no need. And doing it this way also lowers insulin, a problem in it's own right.

My LDL is up(bad), but my HDL os also up(good) and my triglycerides have plummeted from 180 to 85( YEAH BABY!). So, has my heart health been a net loser, tie or winner? I don't know. But that is not my main concern right now, blood sugar and insulin are. Diabetes massively worsens heart health along with everything else. I have brought that almost totally under control, in less than 3 months, with no meds. IMO, that is a net win for my heart and everything else. At least I hope it is a net heart win!

Would Ornish accomplish such? I think it would, and without the rise in LDL. (not sure it would drop triglycerides as much?) If I could just do it! I guess I could if I had to. However, this has addressed my #1 concern: T2D. It has done so quickly and efficiently without meds and with numerous desired side effects. My blood sugar just before supper was 95. My wife made me baked chicken with onions and squash, and mustard greens with pepper sauce. It was delicious, and I am stuffed. In 1 to 2 hours, I will measure my sugar and it will be well below the so called upper cut off for after meal sugars of 140, above which pre-diabetes starts and above 190 or so diabetes starts( not fasting, but AFTER a meal). Honestly, I expect it to be more like 105-120. I will let Y'all know. I am very happy with these continuing improvements. Now if I just do well on my upcoming PSMA next week!