BillyBob@388 said...
Hi Ken/Prato, my next door neighbors went fully vegan and quickly lost a lot of weight and dropped total cholesterol like 40 points. I don't think they were as strict as the Ornish diet. I do remember a small study where it also appeared to reverse tumor growth in a man with prostate cancer, in addition to it's claimed benefits for our hearts. I have never had the nerve to even try it- yet. Even though I love a good garden salad, they do not sound at all good without some good thousand Island, ranch or olive oil/vinegar dressings. IOW, oil, pretty much verbotten on Ornish, right? I can't imagine, but wish I could!
I have had to make my own dietary interventions recently, because, just as I was worried about, my ADT drugs have helped me along towards diabetes(T2D) . Just as stated in their list of known side effects: loss of muscle mass(check), increased fat mass(double check), increase triglycerides(yep) and increased blood sugar( double check). Also a few other negatives all of which probably worsen all cause mortality.
Now, don't get me wrong, my diet was not good to start with, I was not doing what had worked for me in the past, which was pretty much opposite of Ornish. But, my diet did not really change. What did change once the meds were added was the steady increase in weight, fat, belly size, triglycerides and definitely blood sugar. Until I realized a few months ago that I was officially type 2 diabetes.
Which is the last thing in the world a stage 4 prostate cancer patient needs, or really anybody. High blood sugar combined with high blood insulin leads to or worsens just about every disease known to man. So finally, I jumped on it with both feet with what I know works for me: low carb. Meat often with a salad and dressing, but sometimes verging on carnivore. Getting into ketosis. With occasional fasts throw in, which are so much easier for me once I am in ketosis(less hunger). Except for 2 meals recently with slight rule breaks, I have not had real bread, potatoes, corn etc, and the BIG one: desserts, for about 2 1/2 months.
I guess all of this does little to overcome the drug induced inability to add muscle, or give me the energy to do so. But, my blood sugars are MUCH improved and solidly under of the diabetic range, AND my fasting insulin falls only in the middle of the so called "normal range"( I bet a dollar it was MUCH higher 2 1/2 months ago.) My A1c is barely prediabetic. ...........My gut has shrunk a LOT. I have lost over 25 lbs, and my blood pressure was 108/68. Though I miss my high carb foods, but not as much as I did, and I am never actually hungry. I feel like I would "starve" on Ornish.
I feel like my main concern, the T2D, is now under control and improving daily, and I have not yet had any meds for it. Yes, if I had not improved rapidly, I would have got a doc to prescribe meds for me, but so far no need. And doing it this way also lowers insulin, a problem in it's own right.
My LDL is up(bad), but my HDL os also up(good) and my triglycerides have plummeted from 180 to 85( YEAH BABY!). So, has my heart health been a net loser, tie or winner? I don't know. But that is not my main concern right now, blood sugar and insulin are. Diabetes massively worsens heart health along with everything else. I have brought that almost totally under control, in less than 3 months, with no meds. IMO, that is a net win for my heart and everything else. At least I hope it is a net heart win!
Would Ornish accomplish such? I think it would, and without the rise in LDL. (not sure it would drop triglycerides as much?) If I could just do it! I guess I could if I had to. However, this has addressed my #1 concern: T2D. It has done so quickly and efficiently without meds and with numerous desired side effects. My blood sugar just before supper was 95. My wife made me baked chicken with onions and squash, and mustard greens with pepper sauce. It was delicious, and I am stuffed. In 1 to 2 hours, I will measure my sugar and it will be well below the so called upper cut off for after meal sugars of 140, above which pre-diabetes starts and above 190 or so diabetes starts( not fasting, but AFTER a meal). Honestly, I expect it to be more like 105-120. I will let Y'all know. I am very happy with these continuing improvements. Now if I just do well on my upcoming PSMA next week!
Hey Bill good to see you again.
First, you are correct, Ornish is no oil. However, they do have approved products on their list that show oil in the ingredients, but they are always at least the 4th or 5th item so very little, and those items are recommended to be used only ocassionally. TBH, I have added oil back into my diet. I am otherwise compliant, and I do not overdo the oil content. But I needed to make the change in order to make it sustainable. More changes to come.
The Lifestyle Heart Trials which is Ornish landmark study in 1993, that led Medicare to approve the program for reimbursement, showed that all numbers improved in all patients in the cohort WITH THE EXCEPTION OF triglycerides, which went up mildly in most patients. I expected , and was concerned about
, that my TG would rise, as my carb intake went from under 75 grams per day, to average of 200-300 grams on Ornish. However, as I was told by the Ornish people, the carbs I ate on the Ornish program were very different- they were all from whole grains, beans , legumes - complex carbs. And in Fact, my TG after 3 months dropped from 217 to 126. (I RETESTED a month later and TG was up to 181, however, I had made no change in diet, only change was I slacked off on the exercise, so I am back on that.
As an aside, as you saw, my numbers are so much improved. A more recent development is that fasting insulin is still high, but down from 38 before the program to 18. Not sure If I listed it in a previous post, but my a1c is 4.9
So this is clearly the best thing I have ever done for myself.
Glad your keto is working for you, I know from experience, that ADT is not hear healthy at all, in fact after 6 months on ADT my TG was over 500! Yikes
Good luck on the PSMA Pet Scan next week