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Dysbiosis in inflammatory bowel diseases: the oxygen hypothesis.

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Posted 8/23/2013 2:37 PM (GMT -5)
Based on Dysbiosis in inflammatory bowel diseases: the oxygen hypothesis.

The key point I believe is that facultative anaerobes should not be present in any kind of high amounts.

Seems like it is tying together.

Inflammation, generates more oxygen in the colon iNOS/possible excess nitrates in diet/ROS/blood, all add to excess oxygen , or oxygen radicals.  Obligate anaerobes/bacteriodes die, trpsin/protease is not deactivated,facultative anaerobes grow and invade,more inflammation,tissue destruction. Not necessarily in this exact order.

Interestingly enough bacteriodes are the only bacteria known to deactivate trypsin, a serine protease.

If too much protease is present say in the colon/rectum we start to digest ourselves.

Possible trigger events.

Antibiotics

excess nitrate in diet

infection

pesticides

Please read all this info so you can understand what is going on.

Old Mike

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23677008

inflammation probably causing the problem

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23478337

levels in ibd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7481547

host derived nitrate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23393266

well what do you know,brings us full circle back to inos.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130207172102.htm

inhibitors

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pHtWUa6ZCuQJ:www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/17/7/8118/pdf+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

arginase

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2607313

more

http://www.jimmunol.org/content/173/3/2109.full.pdf

You would want to be Manganese sufficient.

more bacteria are NO generators

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2036.2008.03612.x/full

diversion colitis

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1018885217154#page-1

counter point

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ibd.3780050115/pdf

NO from dysbiotic respiration of nitrate

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2036.2008.03612.x/pdf

Nitrates in diet

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/1.full.pdf

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/8/1/16

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v50je07.htm

Moving on to nitrates and nitrite my old thread,more info.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2503059

Oxygen scavengers

DMSO

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8493453

and UC dmso

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1350610

free radicals old stuff,takes some time to load

http://gut.bmj.com/content/34/7/865.full.pdf

 

trypsin and bacteria

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23840402

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21073731

I am always harping on protease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin

Something might be going on with certain probiotics

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0891584906004229

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 8/26/2013 4:26:31 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/23/2013 3:22 PM (GMT -5)

Old Mike said...

I am into dysbiosis right now.

Me too, but these studies again pretty much just confirm what we already know. People with IBD have out of whack flora, and bad bugs can thrive in an inflamed gut. The $64,000 question is how do we get the flora back in balance. I suppose there are some ideas there on why the dysbiosis, but nothing even close to concrete.

Thanks to the FDA, Americans can forget about FT and Mutaflor and Mutaflor type supplements (enteric coated live healthy bacteria) for the foreseeable future.

The theory that IBD is caused by dysbiosis is an old one. Jordan Rubin wrote a whole book about it (Maker's Diet) where he describes how he and his chiropractor father came up with the idea of literally eating dirt to cure his Crohn's. I don't think he actually ended up eating dirt, but does eat stuff that contains organisms found in soil.
Posted 8/23/2013 3:43 PM (GMT -5)
@CGK, You have to take Jordan Rubin with a bag, not a grain, of salt because if you look at all the therapies he claims he tried intensively before moving on, it'd have taken half a lifetime , not the couple years before he "cured" himself with "discovering" the power of SBO's. that said, Primal Defense did help me somewhat for a while, years back And was one of my regular probiotics off and on for years.

Anyway, you are right on at it's very chicken and egg- dysbiosis must be part of the problem but a funky immune system that seems to hate lots of flora that normal immune systems dont give a rat's asx about must be e bigger reason methinks.
Posted 8/23/2013 4:42 PM (GMT -5)
Primal defense probiotic seemed to have a profound impact when I first took it years ago, but now it makes me feel worse. You'd swear those little creeps in your guts eventually find a way around everything you throw at them!!

The thing about Rubin is he is a testament to how an insanely restrictive diet can help you in the long run if you have the discipline to stick to it. He's probably rich enough now where he can hire a cook to make meals for him, lol.

Post Edited (C_G_K) : 8/23/2013 4:01:30 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/23/2013 4:58 PM (GMT -5)
I think the question that needs to be answered is why do we have this dysbiosis? What causes it? One theory is that our immune system has decided to start attacking and killing off one or more of our good bacteria. To me this sounds like a sound theory because if you were to try repopulating the gut with more of the bacteria that is being killed off then it would seem that that would ramp up your immune system even more, causing even worse inflammation. If this is the case you would never be able to repopulate the gut back to it's original condition and if you tried adding more of different kinds of good bacteria instead of the original, you would still have a form of dysbiosis.
Posted 8/23/2013 5:01 PM (GMT -5)
I was just being devil's advocate when I was pointing out that some researchers have said the dysbiosis is a result of UC, and not a cause of it. I think it is very likely the principal cause for most U.C. sufferers. The inflammation is caused by the overgrowth of bad bugs and then starts a reinforcing viscous cycle where the bad bugs live the high life, not bothered by our immune systems, while the mild mannered good bugs can't get a foot hold due to the inflammation, the continuing immune response, and competition from the more aggressive harmful species. I also think there are some faulty genes involved somewhere. Anyways, just my $.02
Posted 8/23/2013 5:57 PM (GMT -5)
SCD diet aims to correct the dysbiosis by starving out bad bugs by not eating complex carbs. Then you make yogurt to bring in the good bugs. Working for me...
Posted 8/23/2013 6:08 PM (GMT -5)
Gary, yes but.

We know that FT works on some,you would think that once the immune system sees these new fecal

bacteria that it would go crazy if it were killing normal flora on purpose. Probably works on more people than not.

On the other had some like Banana girl,and someone else got real sick.  Perhaps we have collateral damage.

From this FT study we learn if their conclusions are correct that the loss of bacteria diversity is due to

inflammation and is secondary,they did say at least partly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23899544

Seems that we have to stop the inflammation first,then fix the bacteria,or perhaps it can fix itself once the

inflammation is stopped.  Easier said then done,been trying it for many years.

All I did back in 1977 was quit smoking,UC 1980, but smoking does not really help me now.

Smoking inhibits the immune system,when I quit now I get really really bad mouth ulcers at least when

going cold turkey.

Might even apply to antibiotic triggered UC,it wipes out the good bacteria,others grow,immune reaction starts against the bad bacteria,but also kills off good ones,resulting in collateral damage. 

So complicated I need a drink.

Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 8/23/2013 5:14:54 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/23/2013 6:28 PM (GMT -5)
OM, maybe the FT donor is the most important part. Someone posted the Larry Smarr video where he found that his microbiome is far from ideal. And as far as I know he didn't have any health issues with his gut. What if some donors have a messed up flora and don't even know it. Then transplanting into someone else might make things worse. If a donor has a good flora with lots of bacteroidetes etc then you might see better results.

When I spoke with Borody last year he was all for reducing the inflammation first as you suggest and do FTs at the same time. He was more concerned with the inflammation deep in the colon walls where the bad bacteria hide out. His reasoning is if you reduce the inflammation deep down you drive out the bad bacteria which then are overpowered by the transplanted good stuff.

Posted 8/23/2013 6:54 PM (GMT -5)
My first autoimmune disease was ITP, in which your immune system has been tricked to destroy the platelets in your blood. One of the theories for it is that you get a virus and the DNA structure in the virus has one section in it which closely resembles a section of the DNA in your platelets. Your immune system gets confused and manufactures antibodies to destroy anything with this section of DNA so it destroys both the virus and your platelets. Your immune system has a file system memory like a computer which stores the information for this antibody. Assuming your immune system eventually destroys the virus in your body it still attacks your platelets because it has been programmed to destroy anything containing that section of DNA which it recognizes as being a foreign invader.

Of course with any autoimmune disease, this is just one of the theories but if this can also be a theory for UC then something has caused our body to manufacture an antibody to some of our good bacteria because that bacteria contains a stretch of DNA structure similar to something else our body tried to fight off and our immune system's computer memory will remember this structure forever, continually trying to kill it off. Antibiotics (which I believe caused my UC) can also be responsible for a bacteria mutating and then your immune system forms an antibody to go after and kill this mutation. If the mutated version of your good bacteria has a similar structure to the good bacteria that mutated, then your immune system could be fighting off both the mutation and the original unmutated good bacteria. Genetic mutations could also be involved somehow.
Posted 8/23/2013 7:16 PM (GMT -5)
Gary: Agree some donors might not have good quality stool.
I also agree the immune system never forgets,or almost never.
Believe we also need more t-regs to control inflammation.
If immune system is truly confused then perhaps we are screwed.
Old Mike
Posted 7/15/2015 5:26 AM (GMT -5)
People keep asking about their microbiome test results.
Read this thread, especially the first link,in the first link read the free full paper.
This is most likely what is going on, and why.
As we all know fixing the problem is another story.
Old Mike
Posted 7/15/2015 6:58 AM (GMT -5)
Thanks for bumping this thread. I'll have a good read of it all.
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