Guardian, you have a lot of faith in fmt, and advocate a lot in defense of it. I just want to see more proof. You make a lot of claims that would be very meaningful if it was backed up by more evidence. I am aware the type of study I am requesting doesn't exist, but I'd love to see it happen

I worry just about things like old mike posted, that fmt isn't a lasting affect (only temporary). The gut biome is constantly changing and, fmt related changes might not last. To me, that indicates fmt treating a symptom (gut micro biome composition being out of wack with uc patients), not curing a disease. None of us have definitive proof to these claims/opinions.

Cheers,

Mike, awesome find!! That was completely my experience. I was going about 6-7 times a day before i did 8 transplants. During the fmts, i was going 18-20 times a day, lots of cramping, high fevers. I knew id get worse if i kept the fmts up so i stopped. 3-5 days later, i was back to "normal." 6-7 x and no more insane watery diarrhea and fevers.

We're all in this together. I understand being skeptical. But I have nothing to lose. This disease has taken my health, my sanity, my freedom, and I fear someday my marriage. Unless you have perforated bowel (you would know because you would be in the hospital with a high fever) and you have a healthy doner gosh seems like it's worth a try. The improvement I've experienced even if I was never cured and had to do them every day, it would be worth it. I'm sitting on my back right now hips elevated actively fighting, whether it cures me or not. Anyone curious please read the book I mentioned.

Oh and to the guy wanting to use your infants poo. Do it! I use my two year olds when my doner is not around. Yes it is said that grown ups have a more complex flora, but hey technically what do we really know about this disease and this whole fmt process...nothing concrete. All I know is that my two year olds stool is freaking macho and his bugs are better than mine, so yes he's my pinch hitter. This therapy has been used for centuries, predominanly in third world countries. The reason why there are next to none clinical studies are because clinical studies are almost alway sponsored by drug companies. NO drug company would sponsor a study of therapy that is free.

Tunnelvisionary said...

Old Mike said...
This is the one I was actually looking for,when I first commented on this thread. Mostly what I have thought
all along is the dysbiosis is caused by the immune system.

We also have seemingly confirming results that there is no dysbiosis in early onset UC,from another study of which

I have posted a few times in the past.

Seems like FMT might work better if you can stop the inflammation prior to FMT,wild guess.

Old Mike

So far, I think the most we can sufficiently say based off evidence is that single FMTs do not work for UC like they did for c diff. Many studies have reported these same results, but the majority of them have only done a single transplant. I think the reason for that is that they're mostly trying to assess the safety of the procedure for IBD. FMT advocate groups have tended to find that multiple transplants done once a day for some extended amount of time have better results.

For many, the symptoms do eventually come back. Those who claim to have been in remission from FMT for years rarely did just FMT, but they treated themselves side by side with drugs to suppress inflammation (personally I believe the drugs should be working well already for it to work), fed the microbes with a greater variety of fibers (and other things microbes eat). One used whey protein shakes, which I think might be smart to help the gut wall heal and mucus regenerate. Maybe gelatin would be better. Up for debate.

Based off this info, it would seem wiser to do FMTs while you're being treated with traditional meds and the treatments are working. Stuff like DIY FMT is more appealing when you're desperate and the meds have stopped working, not so much when they are...but it might be more beneficial to do when they are working well.

It is very difficult to conduct a scientific study around FMT. I think Borody is doing a great job, but there are certain criticisms with his method. I do not believing in using antibiotics prior to the FMT. He's not trained in nutrition, so I would only expect him to employ methods that conform with his medical training.

While I understand Old Mike's paper and the rational behind why the correction induced by FMT and other therapies is transient, I still do not believe it broadly addresses all the intricacies that need to be involved prior to and after FMT. For starters, it is very difficult to do FMT while the mucosal lining is still inflamed. This is one of the reasons a certain percentage of those with severe UC will not respond to the transplant right off the bat. Unfortunately, they will be counted as failures in the statistics. Hurst mentioned the temporary use of pred or mesalamines to settle the inflammation down first.

Any FMT study must account for all the other factors that go into rebuilding the inflamed mucosa lining for it to be successful. I do not believe the mucosa lining will heal without a sound nutritional approach, and certain nutritional adjuncts are absolutely necessary in the beginning stages. I think whey protein, along with gelatin (glycine / proline amino acids) and l-glutamine, are vital.

I truly do think the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts. Every component, even stress, needs to be addressed thoroughly. Hurst touched up on why those with severe UC (and I'm talking about cases necessitating surgical outcomes) hit remission with just the placebo. I do think there is tremendous power in believing that you can heal, and it does influence the outcome of FMT.

"Ughhh, Gary's stalker has missed him...."


well, fortunately for any and all stalkers out there, mr pooville has made it a much easier task due to the fact that he will only "check in occasionally" and promises to "start living my life again."


rrrrriiiiiiiiight !

ambling said...
Thought about getting a life yourself dud? No need to follow Gary around, you are a big boy. You could try responding to the topic instead.

not that's it really any of your business ( or anyone else for that matter) but since you cared enough to ask, a better part of my life is taking care of my severely disabled, and totally awesome 9 year old son -


you mean like this here :

"Posted Yesterday 5:32 AM (GMT -6)

awesome tb ! "

maybe you should read all the posts in a thread rambling -

ambling said...
What a contribution :(. Yeah, you are awesome.

and so this is another example of you stalking or contributing ? please clarify -

if you say so -

but this is how I see it >

you give me sh!t when i give garylouisville sh!t -

how exactly is that contributing ? you're a big girl, right ?

done mucking up this thread - you can continue to contribute all you want -

No one claims, not even Tracy Mac, that FMT is a silver bullet. The opposite in fact. Strengthening the gut wall with lglutamine/colostrum etc. can actually prolong remissions in general even without FMT. Adding FMT to the mix with the right donor can add loyal soldiers on the fortress of your gut.