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Normal response to vaccines in inflammatory bowel disease patients treated with thiopurines.

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Ulcerative Colitis
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Posted 7/10/2014 5:11 PM (GMT -5)
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21438101

Was just thinking about this for the very same reason they did this study. Often it's said we have an autoimmune condition or that out bodies overreact to normal intestinal bacteria etc etc... So I got to thinking if this is in fact the case is there anything out there (a study) to even base this on and prove our bodies overreact to normal bacteria - as to me it seemed more like a hypothesis.

Would be interesting to see if there is any studies showing an "abnormal reaction" to normal bacteria.... Maybe there is one???

Sure our immune systems may in fact be overly reacting, but again, maybe this is simply because they are reacting to something NOT normal like excess bacteria or whatever.

I found the above while trying to find an answer to this. Maybe there's more that shows a different or abnormal reaction though.

So even on immune suppressing drugs we still show a normal immune response.
Posted 7/10/2014 5:23 PM (GMT -5)
I should also say it's known that some anti-bodies are elevated and such... but this doesn't necessarily show an actual "defective" response - or autoimmune response. To me it kinda of points yet again to a barrier problem.
Posted 7/10/2014 6:05 PM (GMT -5)
Mark: It going to be interesting when they figure it out. Whether autoimmune or not.

But, the important thing that I believe we now know for sure is that the bacteria
should not get past the mucus, period.

If they do as in the 14% of normal they found with intramucosal bacteria,then I have to suspect
immune tolerance for some reason, or immune evasion by the bacteria.
Or intramucosal bacteria in the non inflamed areas of UC people same thing.

My question is why in gods name would the immune system tolerate bacteria which breached
the mucus.

One other possible from the paper I posted today, is that in a diverse bacterial community,the

immune system regards the bacteria as self, but that is perhaps far fetched in light of the

mucus barrier designed to keep the bacteria away from the mucosa.


I can assure you that my immune system had zero tolerance for the bacteria that gave me anal

abscesses.
Old Mike



Post Edited (Old Mike) : 7/10/2014 5:48:21 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/10/2014 7:32 PM (GMT -5)
Haha - Yes some elicit quite the response, I think back to my scarlet fever issue. Well, some studies show mucus as spotty and patchy throughout the intestines and places where bacteria do come in contact - but that could also be due to the procedures they used to preserve the mucus. I think the small intestine must have a lot of IgA present to keep them at bay perhaps.

Who the heck knows.

Really, I think it would be nice to duplicate the 10,000 biopsy paper but test the bacteria that are found inside cells for type and strain and for virulence factor genes. Also stain and visualize the mucus layers and IgA... sort of a super combo study.

3 1/2 more years and maybe I can! hahaha.. Hopefully by then someone will have surely looked into things a heck of a lot further. Technology is changing fast so the next few years will be super exciting. Perhaps some decent progress as well.

You know, to be honest after all the reading and learning and thinking my money is not bacteria as the cause, nor the immune system - but a latent mucosal virus trigger type thing... RNA type virus that doesn't reactivate until the immune system is suppressed or some type of stress response - some type of trigger event.

Could just be immune suppression itself though, like antibiotics, and so on...

A case series of transplant recipients who despite immunosuppression developed inflammatory bowel disease.www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9040206
Posted 7/11/2014 9:38 AM (GMT -5)
Don't forget this one,in DSS colitis the first thing that happens is the mucus is penetrated with bacteria,

the inflammation does not start for some days.

OM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20805871

Posted 7/11/2014 11:22 AM (GMT -5)
Old Mike: I've never paid much attention to this mouse model stuff but I have a question:

In DSS mice, am I correct in saying that they are given the drug to induce colitis, the mucus layer in the colon is damaged and penetrated with bacteria eventually causing inflammation but that with no treatment whatsoever of any kind the mouse will eventually make a complete recovery as long as the DSS has been permanently removed?

If this were true then the same thing could be assumed for humans except for the fact that something is continuing to happen to us to keep us in a constant state of inflammation.
Posted 7/11/2014 11:51 AM (GMT -5)
Yes that is correct Gary, I ask the question all the time,why do the mice get better if they stop the dss,and UC is chronic in humans.
I agree, it could be that our mucus is so weak,from food emulsifiers,and detergents other chemicals
that we are exposed to every day. That once we get a breach, it is not easily repaired since the mucus
quality is poor. The mice are not exposed to all this crap.
Even if you eat organic/Paleo,you are still exposed to shampoos, toothpaste,dish detergent,washing machine detergent. I wonder how many here severely limit these exposures.
Or even if the mucus is repaired,can we clear the infection.
Or is some bacteria evading the immune system, causing inflammation,such as oral bacteria in the colon.
Some other unknown factor,such as high mucinase activity.

Also stress messes with the enteric nervous system,which intern messes with mucus quality.

When many of us are stressed,with say job or family our symptoms get worse.
But to me the initial breach,and inability to repair that breach is important.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 7/11/2014 11:03:38 AM (GMT-6)

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