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Posted 5/12/2015 5:51 AM (GMT -5)
Mark:Here is the trial data again.  As you can see he used conventional meds along with oral ala.

He also used a mast cell stabilizer and butytate in the enemas.

If I remember correctly butyrate enemas by themselves don't work all that well.

Regardless of what he used in the enemas, I don't believe you can find a human trial with close

to 100% remission,ever.

As you can see if I keep all this info in one thread I can find it again.


It was not a placebo controlled trial,so the medical community will say gee that's great, it needs more work.

LINK


here is the patent aging,while rereading it seems that glutathione peroxidase more important that catalase.

Patent goes into somewhat more detail on certain aspects.

Guess will have to reread my references on GPx again, so I know for sure what is going on,hopefully.

Not finding much that I have referenced for GPx perhaps it is buried in papers.

Here is the patent give more detail on the human trial.


http://patents.justia.com/patent/20150105356


A degradation profile for H2O2 has been established in human Jurkat T cells. This study determined that glutathione peroxidase activity is responsible for 91% of H2O2 consumption while catalase only contributes a minor role at 9% (Boveris and Cadenas, 2000


On a populational level, ethnic variation of glutathione peroxidase has been recorded with individuals of Jewish or Mediterranean origin exhibiting lower activities (The Metabolic and Molecular Basis of Inherited Disease, 2001, 8th ed., p. 4650). A two to four fold increase in incidence and prevalence of ulcerative colitis has also been reported for these ethnic groups (Roth et al., 1989).


Dam going to have to lay off of the VO.


Alcohol inhibits glutathione peroxidase; a crucial enzyme that neutralizes H2O2, and depletes mitochondrial glutathione (Hoek et al., 2002). Glutathione is not synthesized within mitochondria and must be transported from the cytoplasm into the mitochondria through the mitochondrial membranes. Alcohol interferes with the active transport of glutathione into the mitochondria (Maher, 1997). This leads to mitochondrial depletion of glutathione and H2O2 accumulation. Depleted glutathione and increased H2O2 levels enhance the risk of entering the induction phase of ulcerative colitis. Thus, the methods of the invention contemplate modification of patient intake of alcohol and alcoholic beverages

As far as taking vitamins/supplements in concert, I normally would agree, but I am somewhat wary of B6.

So taking B complex would also have B6.

Been trying to figure out B6 for a long time whether it is a problem or not.

Here is something indicating the need for it.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/37/13559.full.pdf


My old B6 thread.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2427278

I have taken B complex in the past, also multi vitamins and minerals, actually believe they make me somewhat

worse.


Tunnel: I am not against conventional meds,even though my son lost his colon,which soured me on all the meds

at the time.

I don't go to GI docs so I can get no meds.

If I can go into remission with a sample size N=1, there is hope for everyone.


OM

Well here is one I think I have posted before much made in the kidney.

glutathione peroxidase GPx /eGpx

http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v51/n5/full/pr2002106a.html


jumping around a bit here while searching one of my old threads

it seems that the bacteria in colon ulcers can make more hydrogen peroxide than immune cells or at least quite a bit.  This also would tie in with the rate of cell death higher than the regeneration rate.

So another reason for FMT and why it might work

http://www.jpp.krakow.pl/journal/archive/12_09_s6/pdf/49_12_09_s6_article.pdf

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/12/2015 8:51:41 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/13/2015 7:26 AM (GMT -5)
Perhaps too many flavonoids not all that good.

Just read the abstract or conclusions, very tuff read.

about 10 years ago was supplementing Luteoline developed horrendous cramping,almost did me in.

Basically reduce ROS but generate peroxides, at least in test tubes.

Old Mike

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bbb/70/6/70_50604/_pdf


might as well add this, CFS oxidative stress gut enzymes pigs, loss of glutathione

https://www.animalsciencepublications.org/publications/jas/pdfs/90/supplement_4/418


random stuff Tunisian UC people oxidative stress

http://applications.emro.who.int/imemrf/Saudi_J_Gastroenterol/Saudi_J_Gastroenterol_2013_19_3_131_135.pdf


gray hair vitiligo

some other enzymes to worry about

SV is associated with decreased antioxidant capacities, including thioredoxin reductase, catalase, and the repair mechanisms methionine sulfoxide reductases.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/260089.php


ways to increase catalase

http://www.healthyfellow.com/1753/catalase-for-graying-hair/


carnitine have tried in the past no effect on uc, did not take with butyrate

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/tjem/224/3/224_3_209/_pdf


carnitine and beta oxidation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17065219


pepto bismol which I have tried long term no effect on my UC long term use may cause brain damage

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1026618501729#page-1


don't remember trying as an enema though

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2103753


Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/13/2015 11:17:38 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/15/2015 5:32 PM (GMT -5)
I have found some info about pyruvat. I am not a scientist but after what I have read in this thread, this could be interesting.

Pyruvat also seems to have some properties to reduce oxidation and h2o2:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19695227
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20371088
http://www.google.com.au/patents/US8476233

Correct?
Posted 5/15/2015 6:20 PM (GMT -5)
I am not up to date with this thread so forgive if a repeat but saw mention of myeloperoxidase upthread and just read this article..
www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150512/ncomms8113/full/ncomms8113.html
Interplay between enterobactin, myeloperoxidase and lipocalin 2 regulates E. coli survival in the inflamed gut
Posted 5/16/2015 7:02 AM (GMT -5)
I am only running at about 1/8 speed from a norovirus infection.

Anyhow.

Yes pyruvate is in the patent, works as a reducing agent/peroxide scavenger.

Calcium Pyruvate you can get as a supplement.

London: Believe have seen that paper in the past, might even be linked somewhere in this thread.

OM

 

Posted 5/26/2015 11:39 AM (GMT -5)
Back for a little update.

I did a search on reduced glutathione and UC as well as other antioxidant levels. Many more studies done in recent years will find reduced levels of antioxidants, which makes more sense even if it is a secondary effect. Those studies done in the mid 90s finding completely normal levels didn't make any sense to me. But a search of the literature last night seemed to show that many newer studies have found reduced antioxidant levels in UC compared to normal individuals. My guess is that the older studies had inefficient methods/technology to accurately assess this.

For me, the smoking gun(s) are the destruction of the basement membranes in normal tissues, as well as the inhibition of butyrate oxidation pathways via an oxidizing agent. If those things are happening before any WBC involvement, that is extremely telling, in my opinion.

Those mid 90s glutathione studies were really bugging me, so I feel better that there is more evidence in favor of altered levels than I thought. I emailed Dr. Pravda about this but he hadn't responded, which makes me a little annoyed. It's like the one thing I'd really like to hear his thoughts on. OM, or anyone else interested, I would try to shoot him an email about this, see if he responds if more people are interested.

---

In my own case, I just added ALA and started taking 200 mg a day just to see how I fare. This is in addition to orally supplementing butyrate, adding in whey protein, stress reduction, and supplementing with vitamin A + D and a multivitamin to correct deficiencies (as assessed by blood test and history of disordered eating) (which should support normal glutathione function/production)

Progress is slow but it is moving forward I feel. Reduced uveitis, reduced symptoms all around, stools are forming in the morning at least, but liquid later in the day, with progress being made every day. Color and smell is that of normal stool, which is something I never thought that I'd miss, haha. No blood, haven't had blood in months, but now I don't feel like I could start bleeding any day now. I also can urinate much easier/normally now that my colon is absorbing more water from the stool, I think. The butyrate helped a lot initially with symptom reduction, and I think it got even better when I started supplementing ALA (maybe the oxidation pathway became less inhibited).

Some days it seems like regression is happening however, and I think it's because of constipation. I think at this point, before the colon is healed and functional and while the mucus layer and relevant structures are compromised, constipation would exacerbate issues. This is what I've been experiencing. So I think constipation + meds/butyrate not getting to the left side of my colon and are keeping me from making as much progress as I can. Thinking of adding rectal mesalamine and supplying butyrate to my left colon through an enema.

I imagine this whole process will take a while considering i'm not at the full dosage of anything and I've opted out of using any steroids for now. As long as things are generally looking up, I am okay.

Lots of evidence to support Radical Induction Theory. It's the most complete theory i've seen regarding UC. It explains so much, and it is so plausible. But, the glutathione level issue was bothering me the most, and Pravda not getting back to me about it (at least not yet) seemed strange. In any case, i'll keep doing what I'm doing and see if things keep moving in the right direction.
Posted 5/26/2015 1:38 PM (GMT -5)
Good going Tunnel:
I probably posted a zillion links to low glutathione levels in UC, so I am sure it is a problem.
Docs can I suppose get annoyed with too many emails.
I usually get buy with one,hopefully he will answer your second one.
I am still struggling with B6 but have decided to take it for now even though it might increase
peroxides,will have to get back on my program just taking B6 right now.
That norovirus knocked everything for a loop, so I stopped all supplements.
It seems we also have a problem with low S1P lyase, here is my old thread, been looking at this
a lot lately. Difficult to ferret out what is needed yes or no high or low. Very complicated in and out
biochemical path.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3230576
I sort have decided best to have adequate SPL.
Old Mike
Posted 5/26/2015 2:43 PM (GMT -5)
Glutathione peroxidase was the one I was hyper focused on, since Pravda emphasized its peroxide neutralizing action in his original paper. Regardless of glutathione levels, excess peroxide/ROS/RNS is how I'm deciding to approach treatment. I'm basically doing what I can from the patents written by him. Essentially trying to reduce extracellular and intracellular peroxides and giving my colonocytes energy/building blocks for repairing the necessary proteins and barriers.

I remember you posting something about how amino acids will preferentially go to cytokine production before mucus production, so I wonder if that might be why there has been a slight worsening, but my overall health is way better with protein, so i'm hoping that eventually my mucus barrier is just built up enough to where the WBC's don't need to be there or produce inflammatory proteins anyway. We'll see how it goes.

I'd imagine there are a lot of messed up pathways and altered levels of enzymes. For now, i'll just keep it simple and do what I can to reduce peroxide everywhere and let my colon cells do their thing with repair, with immune cells and peroxides out of the way. If Pravda is right, I would think this should do the trick, as this is how he treated his patients.
Posted 5/26/2015 6:34 PM (GMT -5)
Yep good approach,that is my same objective/theory.

Pravda has the best theory as far as I am concerned, Swidsinski, shows what is going on with pictures, but that

is after the fact/downstream of the initial insult to the colon. Swidsinski says the problem is the impaired mucus barrier. Pravda has found the cause of the impaired mucus barrier, IMO.
THe whey protein will build mucus, by supplying necessary amino acids, yes the cytokines will
get the aminos before the mucus.
Will try and find that paper for you. Probably in my threonine thread.
OM

Believe it is this one,but there is probably a lot more in some of my other threads on mucus
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/6/1558.full

here is something else.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20338413

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/26/2015 5:39:21 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/27/2015 4:01 AM (GMT -5)
OM and Tunnel, from all of this information, what do each of you think someone take?

ALA, Whey, B6 vitamin supplementation, butyrate. Anything else?

I realize it's an isolated fact, but since being diagnosed with UC 8 years ago I've gone nearly completely white haired.
Posted 5/27/2015 5:44 AM (GMT -5)
FS:
Interesting, depending on your age and genetics,grey is one thing, white hair is possibly an even
worse peroxide bleaching condition.
I assume you are referring to a paper I posted probably in this thread where the cause of white
hair is peroxides and the hair is being bleached.
B6 is an experiment for me, it does generate peroxides when metabolized, so perhaps not a good idea for everyone to try it.
ALA,NAC,butyrate any and all the antioxidants mentioned in the thread.
How is the UC doing since you have been on ALA for sometime now.

Believe as of today will stop the B6 experiment, seems to make me worse.
OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/27/2015 7:29:55 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/27/2015 6:20 AM (GMT -5)
I was referring to the article you posted on peroxide and white hair. I never thought my going white was connected to my UC, but now wonder. My father went partially white haired around the same time he developed MS--instead of going grey distinct patches of his hair turned white while some remained its normal brown.

UC progress on ALA is a bit hard to say frankly. I've been in what my GI considers remission for 4 years now, but I also know that my bowels are not normal (watery diarhea and urgency 1 time a day) and I'd really like to get them closer to something resembling normal. I'd initially seen steady over all improvement since doing both SCD and taking the ALA about 8 weeks ago, but there's definitely a fair amount of two steps forward one step back to it all. For reasons I assume are related to diet, I went from nearly formed stools to watery D two weeks ago and have been trying to get back to formed stools since then. One thing that has disappeared completely is the abdominal pain I used to experience 10-15 minutes after eating--whether that was UC or not I don't know, but it is gone.

I will add sodium butyrate and vitamin D to my absurdly unscientific approach to supplements (ALA, SCD and tumeric for now in addition to imuran and balsalazide).
Posted 5/27/2015 12:58 PM (GMT -5)
Interesting, I didn't even think of differentiating between grey hair and white hair. I sometimes have white hairs pop up in interesting places on my body and thought I can't fully tell, it seems some hairs I thought were grey hairs on my head look a little white to me. But it's a strand here and there, and my hair is black, so its difficult to tell.

FSLondon, Pravda kept it simple, and essentially used powerful radical scavengers, steroids, and things to repair barrier function and reduce intracellular peroxide.

In addition to your list, I take a multivitamin twice a day instead of a b complex (selenium, magnesium, and the fat soluble vitamins would help, I think). I also supplement liquid vitamin A, D, and K2 (D and K2 are part of the same supplement), because back when I was in a flare, supplementing those three specifically reduced my symptoms like 70% alone. So I emphasize those two, for that reason. Might not be necessary, but that's what I do. I've also learned throughout the years that supplementing just a few things increases the need for everything, so if I supplement vitamins/minerals, I supplement everything in moderation. Thus, the multivitamin. Surprisingly, back when I was taking just the multi, I was feeling better UC wise, which I didn't expect at all. Was able to go an entire day without needing to use the bathroom a few times.

I think if you're already in a pretty good place, improvement will be hard to notice, but i'd say the pain disappearing is a good sign.
Posted 5/27/2015 1:25 PM (GMT -5)
If we ever can revert gray/white hair to our normal/younger color, that might be another way to tell
that we are achieving a good redox balance.
Funny thing is I have gray hair only around the sides, mustache is turning more whitish though, if I don't shave for a day or so beard is salt an pepper but mostly salt now.
Approaching 67 and not all grey not even close to all grey, interesting.
Of course my old boss has white hair, but no UC.
Perhaps why I still have a colon, my redox status is only partially shot.
Since 100mg/day B6 is now making me worse, only took for 4 days, I have to revert to the
supplemental B6 is not good for UC theory,found in 2000 or so in a UK diet study.
Also as Pravda mentions it makes peroxides.

Will have to get back to my antioxidant supplements, ASAP.

Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/27/2015 12:28:40 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/27/2015 3:13 PM (GMT -5)
Dont think gret hair is different from white hair. Grey hair is white hair, just less of it so your overall hair looks grey. My transformation from brown hair to white has just been v rapid. It's probably just genetic and not UC related.

Will think about vit A, k2 and D. Just feel like I need to try to get back to properly normal if I can.
Posted 5/27/2015 3:35 PM (GMT -5)
Not too sure about that one.
My boss looks sort of like a bleached blond no yellow but very white, the grey I have is nowhere near that color.

OM

Here is a 2009 article, but more going on than just bleaching.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-02/foas-nla022309.php

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/27/2015 2:44:18 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/27/2015 3:51 PM (GMT -5)
Especially if we are low on transferase, which is primarily responsible for getting rid of xenobiotics and whatnot.

Any b6 present in my supplements or diet doesn't seem to be that problematic for me as the rest of the things seem to be doing their work okay so far. Were you just testing out the effect of b6, OM? Nowhere have I read that b6 will do anything beneficial, unless you are just trying to confirm that b6 can exacerbate UC on its own (which would support RIT)

Just saying, I wouldn't personally take just a b6 supplement, especially since those can be in really high doses, but in the larger context of a normal diet/supplementation, I haven't sought out or tried to remove any b6 and things are good so far.
Posted 5/27/2015 6:06 PM (GMT -5)
As I posted above B6 necessary for SPL/Sphingosine phosphate lyase, but it seems that excess B6
 is not good,excess peroxides I assume.
Associated with UC.
Here is my thread on S1P if interested.
I go down many many biochemical pathways trying to find a solution.
OM
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3230576

I have also just found out excess B6 associated with PVD of which happened to me last year.

They associated it with women, but I may have been supplementing at the time.

Posterior vitreous detachment. Floaters anyone.

OM

Posted 5/28/2015 11:41 AM (GMT -5)
Came out 5 minutes ago.

What is key for immune cells to migrate to wounds, me thinks our colons are wounded.

Duh: Hydrogen peroxide of course.

Old Mike

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-05-scientists-key-immune-cell-migration.html


 complete paper

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(15)00488-1

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/28/2015 10:52:00 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/31/2015 7:36 AM (GMT -5)
You might remember that I mention many times that most probiotics and fresh lacto fermented pickles,

cause me severe problems.

Well perhaps since many lacto strains produce hydrogen peroxide, might be the problem.

In healthy people these probiotics might not be a problem, since the peroxide would also tend to

control pathogens.

It might also be wise for the people who formulate probiotic to screen for peroxide production, some info

is know but not that much.

Many believe they are helped by probiotics, so cant say they are all not good for you, but.


Old Mike

URL is so long have to

LINK it.


A little on colon bacteria and peroxides.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20224151


As they say here careful selection of probiotic strains should be used before trials.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20224152


Another

LINK


There is a new gluten thread that mentions the FODMAP diet,and some UC people are helped.

Same with the SCD and GAPs, and Paleo. Yet others are helped by going on veggie diets

It now occurs to me that, ok you are starving certain bacteria that feed on FODMAP's

Could it be that these bacteria make lots of hydrogen peroxide, believe so,and that much of the improvement

might be due to less peroxides. I probably cant prove this but might be of interest.

When they don't work, you might also have a poor redox status to begin with, and only lowering

one source of peroxides is not enough.



Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/31/2015 9:02:08 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/31/2015 2:39 PM (GMT -5)
OM, I had wondered the same thing. Do the successful diets reduce peroxide producing bacteria, or reduce self created peroxide or increase systemic cysteine, glutathione etc. or some combination of both. The fe articles I saw on low carbs diets and oxidative stress didn't seem to show they help, but I have wondered if there's a way to link diet mod to your theory.
Posted 5/31/2015 3:31 PM (GMT -5)
FS: The link is perhaps feeding certain bacteria that make peroxides, which ones are still
mostly unknown at least to me, but you can see many in the fermented pickle article I posted.
Many of these UC diets are bacteria starvation diets.
Part of the problem also is that, they may start feeding on your mucus if deprived of nutrients from dietary sources. As you can see this is all very complex.
I don't do well on FOS or inulin, which are both prebiotics, tried them both in the past.
Back then a theory was to feed good bacteria, the problem is which ones are really good for us.
SCD did not fix me,was eating mostly meat, I even gave up beer, tried it 3 times all I did was to loose weight,of which I am still trying to gain back.

The above is just a wild speculation based on my poor response to probiotics and fresh lacto fermented pickles, and of course FOS and Inulin.

Tie that in with my latest bad experience with B6 making excess peroxides, and SOD make me worse, it makes

peroxide, arginine  make me worse increase nitric oxide.  I am just an oxidized mess.

It is also a proven fact that UC people have increased oxygen tension in the colon and that facultative bacteria

have taken over. The love oxygen, where the colon should be a low oxygen, reducing area.
OM

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/31/2015 2:37:59 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/7/2015 9:40 AM (GMT -5)
I am sure that somehow this has to do with RIT.

If we induce hypoxia by quenching peroxides then a similar mechanism to what is found in this paper, neutrophil recruitment should reduce, perhaps.

Old Mike

quite complex difficult read

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074761313005621


of course there is always confounding info HIF not good

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18439915


HIF good

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15489957


Posted 6/7/2015 10:32 AM (GMT -5)
Interesting. If adds to the complexity.

Tunnel, did want to mention I added liquid Vit D and K2 about a week ago and it had a near immediate improvement on how formed my stools are. No improvement in my spinal arthritis, but the impact on bowel function was noticeable. I'd been taking vitamin d in pill form for a while and it didn't seem to make any difference.
Posted 6/7/2015 11:24 AM (GMT -5)

FS: This might have something to do with what you are seeing with Vitamin D.

Since you are using lipoic to decrease peroxides then the VDR/gene expression would not be inhibited.

Peroxides strongly inhibit the VDR, if the VDR's are not working,then believe you can load up on as much vitamin D as

possible but it will not activate the receptor.

So what you are seeing makes sense biochemically, at least on the surface.  Good info that you notice this,

perhaps very important,that vitamin D was doing nothing for you in the past. I may have something earlier

in the thread in VDR inhibition by peroxides.

Bottom line I think,peroxide induced VDR irreversible or only slightly reversible,so prevent the excess

peroxide in the first place,then the VDR will work and Vitamin D will work.

Old Mike

http://www.jbc.org/content/277/15/13294.full.pdf


Post Edited (Old Mike) : 6/7/2015 10:45:11 AM (GMT-6)

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